ARE WE RACING NEXT YEAR?ITS UP TO YOU

[Paul Robertson]

On my original post i should have specified it was the sprint championship barc were considering stopping.
   I can see the reason they would sooner leave us doing hour races , as in that hour they could probably only get two sprints in , and with falling grids they would make as much from us in an hour as they would from two sprints of say 18 cars.
  Whatever sort of championship you all decide to have next year.The MOST important thing in MY opinion is that there is only one (Sprint or Enduro) you all must decide and all support that descision.
   We cannot have another year of both as it is too expensive .
   In MY opinion the entries for the season should be around £1000 per driver excluding the 24 hr race .

Paul

[Derek Coghill]

Paul, is the race cost not dictated by BARC? You're not going to get 8 sprints at £125 each, I think they're more like £175 now. I think the Silverstone enduro was £300-and-something; probably more like £1500 + 24hr for a season.

[Catherine Noble]

I thought part of the 2cv racing ethos was "big thrills, small bills" ?

C x

[Andrew Bull]

I think that many People are missing the main issue.  

MOTORSPORT IS AN EXPENSIVE HOBBY!!!

Racing cars of any type is not "small bills" excercise.  The only difference between our cars and anyone elses, is that the Base vehicle for conversions are relatively cheap.  Also to buy a prepped car, from the midfield, would be somewhere in the region of £2k-£3.  Championship winners double that figure.

So bearing that in mind, it is an affordable series to buy a vehicle for, BUT it is still as expensive as any other form of motorsport.  The entries, race fuel, travel fuel, food, trailer, tow vehicle, licence, memberships, race wear, etc will still cost the same amount of money as a legend racer, max 5 racer, caterham racer and so on.  

We have to drop this fantasy that we are clinging to about Small bills being a draw.  Cheaper cars than most series?  May be not.  An old Saxo VTR could be £1000 another £1000 prepping it, and you're in to stock hatches!!!!!!! BARC or 750MC  BUT you still have all the same associated costs as mentioned earlier.  

Our solutions must be focussed away from this false notion of cheap motor sport and directed towards Close, thrilling, exiting racing for all involved.  I say for all involved, as we dont get spectators.  Circuits dont get spectators for club sport days, and commentators dont know anything even if there are a few die hard fans of club racing (or even local 2cvGB groups that turn up).  We need to draw current racers from other clubs who have multi class races, for example, and are regularly racing against the same three or four other cars and usually not really racing, whom are hacked off with not getting any results or even a good battle.  

This in my view is one of our key strengths.  It does not matter where you are on the grid, there will always be a fight to be had.  Our second group of cars is usually 7 or 8 strong all fighting for 3rd or 4th position.  

There will always be fast people and/or machines and there willl always be slower people and/or machines.  It doesnt matter how tight you make the regs there will always be quicker and slower people and/or machines.  The only way to make things 'Fairer' (not sure this is the right way of putting it) is to completeley standardise everything.  This means steps backwards in terms of performance, or everone has to spend a minimum amount of money on all the standard items.  Even then Standards have variances.

Best regards

Andrew Bull

[Paul Robertson]

Derek, if the club were to buy the track time and we filled the grids as we used to entry fees could be significantly reduced.An hour at mallory with 30 mins qualifying would cost around £7100 / 28 cars =£254 split into as many races as we do or do not desire.
OK try this for size Pembrey 2 hours@      £  11000 /30 =£366
                           Mallory    1 hour@       £    7100/32 = £221
                           Anglesey 1 hour @       £   7100/25 = £284
                           Silverstone 1.5 hours@ £   9600/34 = £282

                          Grand total for 5.5 hours racing= £1153 PER CAR
                          Split 2 ways £577 PER DRIVER.
However this all rests on us getting Full grids Something we would appear to be unable to do nowadays.
SO                       Pembrey 2 hours@      £  11000 /20 =£550
                           Mallory    1 hour@       £    7100/20 = £355
                           Anglesey 1 hour @       £   7100/20 = £355
                           Silverstone 1.5 hours@ £   9600/20 = £480

                           Grand total for 5.5 hours racing = £1740 per car
                           Split 2 ways  £870 Per driver
For every car over 20  the club reaps the profit which theoretically could be the difference between A and B=£580 per car
17 cars would mean that those that had done all the previous rounds COULD  do 1.5 hours at silverstone free.This would mean getting our grid size up to 24 cars  with 55 cars registered in the club we should be trying to get half of them out at each race.

[TerryCollier]

At last someone has the audacity to put the truth in print. Thanks Andrew.

Cost has been always a bugbear with any discussions about the future of the Club. Yes it is true -- Motor Racing is an expensive hobby!! Team Collier Racing was accused of throwing money at a problem, with our use of Practise Days and Rolling Roads, ignoring Team Tee Shirts! However, my running budget for car development was less than it would have cost me to join a Golf Club and play once a week.

Compared to other series we do have a slight cost advantage. True the ancillary costs as Andrew outlined are the same, however, spares are nowhere as expensive. Scrap Yards and Breakers can provide most of the bits and pieces one needs. Thanks to Citroen over engineering the 2CV the components have a longer life than the total vehicle -- except for valve springs!! The other thing is that the 2CV is low tech. This means that the mechanics can really work on the car without the bother of car management systems. Even I taught myself the principles of the engine. I wonder how many of us have talked to mechanics in Garages to see if they are interested enough in being involved with a racing car?

So we have a series that involves a car that can be kept running with comparatively low expenditure. On the Track the performance, in terms of roadholding, means overtaking options are higher and driving lines round corners are many. this gives rise to more exciting and fulfilling driving experience.

The "normal" 2Cv race splits into three main groups, the front runners, the middle section and the third part. However, this is only really transparent with big grids. With small ones there are not enough cars to form the interesting groups.

We have one race that can attract large grids that is the 24 hour race. This race, if it is managed well by the Car owners, is a very low cost event. For example, if three drives are sold off at a £1000, then the initial budget is £3000.

Against this we should offset Race entry at £2500, Petrol at £200, Tyres at £100, Catering at £100. Other costs such as spare parts, engines etc are amortized across several races not just one. So the net outlay to the car owner is down to transport plus a bit for luck. If two car owners decide to share a car then by leasing out the other car the financial picture becomes even better.

So cost is not the big issue. If we examined my concept of a three 24 Hour Series we have a situation where your normal racing budget will be increased by profit made per race. For instance Spa and Pembrey would probably be only £2000 per race entry.

To race in the only competitor on an arrive and drive basis costs over £4000. To sell a three race series including Spa for £4000 on the same basis is not a difficult thing, this would increase the car preparation budget. This would guarantee a busy track which will increase the driving experience, except for Spa where driving the track alone would be a blast.

The Market is there, the 24 Hour concept is a draw the only question is whether we can keep enough of these newly experienced drivers to maintain a traditional season of three or four other races?

Always in Marketing think what do the potential Customers want from my type of Product? How can my product give it to them? How do I tell them that they can get it from my product? Answer these questions and you can see the foundation for the concept.

Cheers

Terry Collier

[Marc Fenner]

Well as pointed out there are lots of ideas being thrown around.

I been talking to a few people and the thought of trying to get the age of racing lowered for our series.

There are loads of 14 year old boys/girls that either race karts or stock cars.

Can we not get them into the series. Its surely the next step up for them if they are wanting steps forward.
Maybe it has to be one of these things that they have to have a adult to take charge of looking after them?

Just an idea.

The other thing is can we not run 2 classes in one championship.
By this i mean can we have the guys that want to develop the cars to go faster  then also have a completly standard class?

This given people choice.

[rod stead]

Andrew Bull makes some very good points, particularly about costs.
He also makes the point about what drivers want - close racing.
Big grids usually mean there's someone at a similar level to have a dice with.

Which series are getting full grids?
MaX5 & Classic  FFords are 2 categories where competitive cars cost around £6K & give great thrills.
Caterhams & Historic FFords do the same for over twice the price.

Why do they get big grids?
Affordable, close racing is my guess in cars that are easy to maintain & credible.

Do we offer a similar experience?
Affordable? Yes.
Close racing? Yes.
Cars easy to maintain? Not really. With limited mechanical knowledge I can maintain an FFord, but struggle with the 2CV because it's so specialist. I think this puts people from other series off.

Credible?
Everyone I know thinks I'm mad to race a 2CV; the single seater they understand.
Explain to them it's for endurance racing & they can see the novelty.
Getting them to try it is difficult.
I've persuaded a couple of guys to try the 24 hour race: one came back, one didn't.
The one that came back will do it again & more often if we did more of this style of racing.
He's converted to the thrills & can live with the ridicule others throw at him as indeed we all do.

Moral of the story?
More endurance races, make it easy for people to try the series so we have a chance of converting them, debunk the mechanical complexity arguement & promote the series as offering credible racing for a sensible price.

[Trevor Williams]

Marc
I have spoken to the MSA regarding minimum age limit for our races.

The problem is that the T cars, Ginette juniors et al are all restricted age events. That means that only 14-16 year olds are allowed to compete. No way around that I'm afraid.

So we are left with racing under the MSA (FIA?) minimum age limit of 16 years of age

Cheers

Trevor

[Trevor Williams]

Just to put the cat among the pigeons regarding Paul's posting above.

By my calculations, this seasons racing, if you entered ALL the events, would have cost you $1,820.00 (excuse the $ sign, the keyboard I am using is snafu) Of course this does not include the 24 hour race, but does include for the fact that if you did al the races, you get the last one free.

Guess how much track time that amount of money bought you? 5 1/2 hours!!!!

Same amount of track time as the proposed events next year?!? For only $80.00 more!?! With different formats!?!

[Trevor Williams]

Just to put the cat among the pigeons regarding Paul's posting above.

By my calculations, this seasons racing, if you entered ALL the events, would have cost you $1,820.00 (excuse the $ sign, the keyboard I am using is snafu) Of course this does not include the 24 hour race, but does include for the fact that if you did al the races, you get the last one free.

Guess how much track time that amount of money bought you? 5 1/2 hours!!!!

Same amount of track time as the proposed events next year?!? For only $80.00 more!?! With different formats!?!

[Trevor Williams]

More cats being thrown

The 2CV is in no way mechanically complex. It is by far and away the easiest car I have ever worked on, all you need to remember is that it's French. Therefore you need 11mm spanners / sockets etc

Clsoe racing: You do not get close racing in Endurance races. Once the driver changes are over the only people who know where they are and who they are racing against are the front runners.

Cheers

Trevor

[TerryCollier]

Trevor is right. The 2CV engine and car is very retro and simple to play around with. All I would suggest is that a Haynes Manual is a vital bit of Kit.

Re the Endurance races. it is one of the mysteries of life. How do 5 cars, which have been as close as can be, go into the pits and then split up as all are suffering from BO?

The Driver change is the key. Most Enduros are won in this operation. It is simple really. If one car is slower on lap time by 0.5secs per lap but can gain 7 secs on the change, then it will take the faster car 14 laps to catch up all being even. However, as Drivers etc are not equal then the pit stop has a greater effect. I wonder how many Teams practise this? How many have timed the competition in order to set a target? How about two odd things. Put the larger Driver in first. It is quicker to tighten straps than loosen them. Have someone on the passenger side to manage the straps there. The exiting driver manages those straps. These would significantly speed up the change. The rest is up to the driver's agility. In my case this takes up to the Chequered Flag.

These things are not rocket science. Just professional analysis and practise.

Regards

Terry

[Geoff Archer]

well just 2 things really,

first: as i have always said if you cant afford to piss £500 against the wall you cant afford to race!!!! that simple, i remember once a club member saying they cant afford to put 2 new tyres on my car and do a race, simple! you cant afford racing its your  dream leave it as a dream!!!!

second: well heres wot a prospective racer said to me the other year, he was looking at racing, close racing, looked at 2cvs and ruled it out on the maintance of the car!!, as he said i can buy a fiesta for the stock hatches and even kwik fit can fit a wheel bearing in that!!! even people struggle to get std 2cv's servied at normal garages, not every one who races can use a spanner, (plenty of examples of that over the years).
i agree with trev and terry about the simple nature of the car but to the majority of people and mechanics its not, the simplicity seems to be a trade secret, which from a buisness point of veiw is great long may it go on!!!!

so we have to live with this it will not change we race a car that can be compared to exotic cars to get maintained, so we just have to keep the series competive and the regs reliable, and thats all we can do, may be the sprint format has finished, so lets pull together and and promote this as a classic endurance series, !!!!!

geoff


ps 3 24hr races????? sorry smell the coffee and get the true total cost of the 24 hr

[Bob Rice]

Coffee smells good Geoff...