hi all,
nice to catch up with those that turned up at Oulton this weekend. Sadly our weekend didn't go quite to plan!
but pleased to report that Sammie was in good mood when I spoke to her last night on the way home and doesn't have any broken bits. Just a lot of bruises.
Also many thanks to everyone who helped us get Lien's car back onto the trailer yesterday,many hands make light work.
I see another re- chassis coming on in the near future! after this one we should be getting good at it. this will be the 3rd chassis under that car in less than a year!
anyway thanks to everyone again and see you all at Brands in 2 weeks with the T car.
great atmosphere in the paddock this weekend too.
Gadget
Yes the weekend didn't quite go as planned! The accident took it the whole team, Glenn, Simon, Sammie and myself with only my car able to carry on!
I'm working my magic on the body panels right now.
Great news that Sammie is ok. I have footage of her crash from my onboard camera and it was quite an impact. I'll try and post it later.
Nice seeing everyone yesterday on our return, glad to hear all involved in the first corner incident are just a little bruised, and a big thank you to all those who managed to miss me during my two epic moments on the restart at the same corner!!!! due to work commitments at this stage thats our season done, so the rest of have a good season and stay safe.
Simon
Sad to see soo much carnage upon our return to racing.
On a happier note it's good to hear that all who sustained knocks, bruises and aches and pains are ok.
Simon if only my camera was any good I would have caught your restart involving one of your tail wagging episodes. Epic to the point of wondering if you had entered a drift championship 😊
Car 92 after Oulton crash.
I am not sure what happened in race and glad to hear last night Sammie ok. I was hit at least 3 times - my car definitely twitched at the end of the corner for some reason before the main impacts - not fun.
My car is written off but Crisis One will phoenix like come back at some point this year.
There are some potential safety issues I was not aware of which I will pass on to technical committee but seem worth sharing now.
* the roll cage bars on the floor were poorly welded at front and both the welds broke but the bar itself bent first so presumably its own strength is questionable
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ij0dxk5e8lkvo0g/AACvOi2U2XzYz-47kur7kB6ka?raw=1)
* the bar at the rear bent up by 80 mm approx but did not break
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/56eehi6egygnwia/AABBXwUQd3GuPSCrzVNECBiGa?raw=1)
the rolll cage and floor bars car when I bought it 10 years ago and I have never touched them. I am glad i had nothing mounted across the bars other than the footplate in the picture
* the seat rail mounts and all the harness mounts worked fine and no signs of any movement
* the seat side mount at the rear however was deflected out by around 40 mm at the top
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/l9xc5ce4s9pgrf5/AADcO5nuHpCcqYfy1sBV6KKqa?raw=1)
* the seat itself has shifted 100 mm at the top to the right when viewed from front - middle of spirit level in pic below is dead centre of seat.
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/uwit45qq4jpwzw3/AABd0HjYVy2Qys-5BP4Xjn-Qa?raw=1)
seat as seen when in car
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/axyqkzxo18repz2/AAAv1aAZf-U95SnT6X76fBWpa?raw=1)
seat rails and mounts from demon tweeks within last 8 years
seat was new in 2010
* seat belts were inspected by BARC/MSA and show clear marks of the impact and while I do not have to replace them it is recommended I do
* my leg is ok but badly bruised at top of thigh as the front part of the seat seemed to be stronger than the rear and along with the harnesses took the strain when the seat shifted at top as the side mount leg bent - doctor at track happy I keep the leg and no need to replace it
side view of car from other side of where the bar bent in first picture which was main contact point
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/3q39vk19svcxyav/AAD7dsm-17_UhwGCQMOwS8-3a?raw=1)
I had bought a HANS device as planning to do some euro races with it this year but had not had time to fit a harness bar before race so was not using it. Helmet was fine after crash and inspected by BARC/ MSA.
I had a standard battery mounted using standard 2cv battery restraint (nut and spring on side mounted rods) - the battery was found around 10 metres from car. I will use a more robust battery bracket in future.
Nick
Thanks for posting the pics and info Nick lots of food for thought,
Quick video of the 1st lap shunt from the very back of the grid : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw9GgCc6fO4
If for some reason Youtube is showing the full 35 minute version (it says it has edited it down), go to about 14:00 to see the start
I thought the flat bar was supposed to be welded to the floor and bolted through the chassis.
Nick, on my gopro footage your right front wheel is in the middle of the kerb so you were well on the matting. I'll post my footage tonight so you can see. Did you get tapped from behind?
I've posted my photos of the first corner incident to the racing club's FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.807884939287003.1073741879.101549509920553&type=1
I'm sure Chris will put my pics on this site as a gallery in next next couple of days too.
Blimey!! :o :o
I am so glad that everybody escaped with only severe bruising. Cars can be replaced; humans can't.
Thanks for the photos & videos posted so far; I couldn't make it to the race meeting and I was horrified when I received a message asking what had happened & why did the 2CV race need the Air Ambulance. Needless to say I feared the worst.
It is interesting to see the damage sustained to the various cars involved. I am shocked by the damage to Nick's car.
Glad everybody escaped with relatively minor injuries, the angle of Nick's seat is scary.
I've also got footage of the main impact, Sammie was clearly unsighted as she only starts braking metres before she sees it. I'm not surprised by the damage having seen the video. Will try and post it tonight.
Having seen the photos, can I just add my thanks to whomever was looking over everyone on Saturday!! That could have been a lot worse!
Paul, The regs aren't very clear on the subject of the cross bar. If you (the tech bods) feel that they should be tightened up I would suggest getting a clear bulletin issued by BARC.
Can I also suggest that if the club is thinking of doing any fundraising, a very deserving target for any cash would be any air ambulance service that is near a circuit? (we had to call them twice over the weekend at Silverstone)
Stay safe, heal quickly, metal can be repaired, and see you all at Brands
This is what this years regs are supposed to say but have not been signed off by the MSA as far as i am aware Trev. http://www.2cvracing.org.uk/images/documents/2015/C2CVRC-2015-rule-changes-RH-amendment.docx
Thanks Paul,
That definitely is not on the published copy of the regs
Here is the footage from my car,
Roof mounted gopro - https://youtu.be/rrxPi_M01U4 (https://youtu.be/rrxPi_M01U4)
Vbox video - you can see Sammie's accident in the rear camera - http://youtu.be/ByidatUR8F4 (http://youtu.be/ByidatUR8F4)
Great footage, horrible accident.
Ref Damage to Nick Roads car and flat bar Interesting to see But irrespective of of whether it was welded to the floor damage would still occur. With my roll cage which was deemed unacceptable to the club as it was reckoned to be a performance enhancement!! this would not happen as it is integral with the chassis and would probably have pushed the car sideways. Jon
I think we may of had a different outcome if we had had a proper full green flag lap, we never got to see the damp patches on the first corner. I understand this is to save time during the day, something we should watch as a club at all the meetings, ok if it's dry but look what has happened when it's damp.
Not going to comment on "proper green flag lap", but the accident was a carbon copy of one at the same corner a few years back. And Lien's car was destroyed in that one as well if I remember correctly.
There are always accidents there and nearly always because a car has gone wide and they lose it and come back across the track.
Exactly the same thing happened to me when I was pole in an MX5 race and I got taken into the barriers on the right by an out of control car!
If I ever get pole again at Oulton I'm going to start from the pit lane!
So glad that Sammie is OK.
After seeing Nick's front floor brace bent like it was tin foil, there has to be a case for there being something stiffer being mandated between the front/rear cage legs.
I am delighted that Sammie is in one piece.
Re Nick's point on the seat belts. I understand that belts are designed to stretch a little on impact to absorb the energy and they do not recover. Replacement may not be mandatory but not doing so is jolly stupid.
Quote from: Caryl Wills on March 31, 2015, 16:24:09
So glad that Sammie is OK.
After seeing Nick's front floor brace bent like it was tin foil, there has to be a case for there being something stiffer being mandated between the front/rear cage legs.
There already are options Caryl,it's just they are not in this years regs yet. It does depend on how you install the flat bar too.mine is stitch welded to the floor and to the bulkhead at the front as well as being bolted to the chassis.The rear is stitch welded across the body and on 88 is stitch welded to the floor and the rear bulkhead. NOT just welded to the rollcage feet.i am amazed there are still cars out there like nicks,i thought years ago we had told people to weld and bolt them.
I proposed the flat bar 15 years ago as it was the minimum requirement in belgium ,you have to consider it is 8 times thicker than the floor!
More footage, this time from my car. Captures the main impact :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7ust_8S5pg&feature=youtu.be
The pictures and video are similar to my recollection of what happened. Not sure we will know exactly the sequence of events. Stewards told me they had it all on video and it was a 'racing incident' after I had given a statement. I was, and am, happy with that conclusion. With all that said Richard's suggestion of starting in pit lane sounds very attractive at the moment.
On the safety points then the battery coming out I now realise was more to do with the impact going into the battery bay and deforming the bulkhead.
I asked structural engineer at a company I work with for steelwork in buildings about the proposed regulation for the bar across the floor. His reply in italics:
Although roll cages and cars are not really my forte I would say that the bar is going to provide very little resistance. It looks to me that the bar is there to provide compressive resistance to the frame. Comparatively a flat metal bar offers little to no resistance relative to a box section. I would suggest that to improve the roll cage the bar should replaced with a box section or similar.
I would focus on the rear bar in my car. My rear bar did not pop the welds but deformed by 80 mm upwards presumably as the chassis deformed below and at front. If my bars had been bolted and welded by NASA at the foot of the roll cage it would still bend like it was a reed when hit at 50 mph? Both bars would survive better if welded and bolted to other parts of the car as Paul mentions but why not use a box section which is more designed for compression and can presumably be snugly fitted against the tube.
The hip protection bar on my roll/ safety cage passenger door seems to have been stronger than the chassis and protected/ saved me. The door is literally folded around it.
On facebook Marc Fenner says the floor bar was there as a result of the roll cage punching through the chassis when a car rolled. Looking at other roll/ safety cages they do not often feature floor bars (the chassis is assumed to be able to provide compressive protection I assume) so am not sure the exact purpose for the 2cv race car. Most other cages have no floor bars but have a 'dash' or 'knee' bar.
I will carefully look at my chassis after Brands as mine, like others I suspect, is well over 10 years old and I wonder if it preformed as it was intended too.
Paul - The Belgians I am told have a tube running under the body and through the chassis which connects to the foot of the safety cage in present regulations?. This is either 40x40x3 box (not 50x25x3 as proposed in new UK tech regs) or tube only as I read it. Item D on page 20 of attached and I have pasted the image below. Their cars have had some pretty big crashes and I cannot see why we would not add the Belgian location and box size to the proposed regs?
They also have the 'dash' / 'knee' bar along with other extra sections. The front tubes 'c' are optional. The rear section we do not have in our regs is to largely protect the fuel cell which is located in the boot behind a fire wall.
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/uonrtu05q7vfs3y/AADaksMkFSTHQyoESbjHDqN7a?raw=1)
Mr Fenner is wrong Nick, the bar was brought in for side impact not for rollover,I should know it was my proposal. The belgian style through the chassis was deemed not acceptable at an agm two or three years ago. We now allow box section or rollcage tube as options.
I reiterate IF the bars had been welded along their length they would have stood up to the job much better than yours did.
The reason for flat bar as a minimum was to allow those of us with large feet to still be able to operate the pedals .
I think the technical committee should inspect the cars at brands and examine how the cross bars /box section /tubes have been installed.
My rollcage foot bars are the same as Nick's. Will definitely have them reinforced with box section, but I won't be able to get this done for Brands.
mine too Adam - and tied into the chassis with only four bolts, on the previous chassis not even bolted!!!!!!
I would certainly recommend anyone with a flat bar across the REAR legs to replace that with a tube of similar diameter to the main roll cage. The front bar is more an issue due to foot position.
Would it be an option for future regs discussions to have tube across the front legs, with an exception for where the footrest is, which could be replaced with flat bar? And then somehow secure the tube to the chassis/shell. I know that the structure would only be as strong as its weakest part (the bar) but with a shorter length of bar it might limit the deflection upwards that was seen on Nick's car.
Alternatively perhaps we can have a crack at voting a bar at dash/knee level rather than on the floor?
Is it just me or is the chassis the wrong way around on that illustration of Nick's :D
Replying to flat bar / foot ergonomics..
I'd rather be uncomfortable and have a stronger cage. I think the 5mm bar seam welded to the floor may just have ripped the floor up - however I have no evidence for this just what I imagine would happen.
Thanks for posting that video Matt, makes interesting viewing!!
On the subject of flat bar, roll cage tubing or box section, PLEASE be very careful what you all do ( if anything) in the next week. As the regulations stand, the only material that should be between the roll cage feet is 50x5mm flat bar or roll cage tubing of the same dimensions as that already installed. ANYTHING else would be a breach of the regulations. UNLESS you get a bulletin issued from BARC on safety grounds (because you aren't going to get every registered competitor to agree in writing to a change in the next 6 days)
If you want to weld cross bars into the rollcage at dash height, you already can. The regs no longer make reference to a specific drawing for the rollcage, just a couple of regulations, plus you have the optional reinforcement provisions. Have a look at the Blue Book before making changes that aren't necessary
Trevor
Ok, so technically with the regs now being published as they were last year (the changes agreed at the AGM are NOT present), we should have the cross bars welded AND bolted to *the cage feet* and welded at the chassis joins.
That's how I understand it at present anyway.
Chris,
That's what the regs say. My point being that anyone using / installing a box section would be in breach of this, unless a bulletin was issued
Controversial perhaps, but surely a bit of 'give' in the flat bars has probably saved Nick from further injury? The flat steel has flexed and absorbed the impact, if there was a rigid steel bar, is there not a danger that the softest bit in the middle (the driver) is subjected to greater forces?
Like a crumple zone, it's not a bad thing, however your feet tend to be within the crumple zone.
"The pictures and video are similar to my recollection of what happened. Not sure we will know exactly the sequence of events. Stewards told me they had it all on video and it was a 'racing incident' after I had given a statement. I was, and am, happy with that conclusion"
In response to Nicks post, excerpt above;
I was in the pit lane and didn't see the incident. However I personally am very pissed about the whole thing. We've wrecked several cars with severe damage to several more. Put a close friend of mine in hospital, caused complete disruption to the race day, probably now being resented as a club by the other clubs on the card (think about how we usually assume it's the cater hams or open wheelers), we have total photographic and video evidence of the whole incident clearly documenting the whole thing. Yet the whole discussion here is about the strength of the flat bar. GET SOME PRIORITY ACKNOWLEDGE THE ROOT CAUSE. GUNG HO FIRST CORNER, MORE THAN ONE CAR WITH ALL 4 WHEELS OVER THE KERB AND STARTING THE CHAIN OF EVENTS WAS THE ROOT CAUSE.
We can clearly see the exact sequence of events! Man up! I don't point the finger often but surely we should be addressing the driving standards too.
Wrt The cars, they have done their job. At the end of the day they have contained and protected the occupant as designed.
We all accept there is an element of risk, (even myself standing or working in pig lane) however the fundamental principle of Continuous Improvement with regard to safety is what the FIA right down to our club level is supporting. This is one of the functions of the technical committee. I suggest that rather than knee jerk reacting to one incident we actually conduct an improvement opportunity in a structured manner and through the appropriate channels. @tech committe members. Does the floor bar need reviewing.? It's installation validating in current cars? should we be recalculating cage design?
@moderator, please remove if you feel this is too strong but I think it has to be said.
Apologies for the rant.
Like Glenn said, a green flag lap would have helped. The first corner is pretty much one line and there were damp patches. Both Nick and Sammie ran wide at the first corner, unfortunately Nick was at an angle that put him in to a spin. After that, there was a bad crash, pretty much as serious as you can get in a 2cv.
I like everyone was upset by what I saw, the sight of Nick's car recoiling in front of me after a huge smash (Sammie was to my left and my main focus was not to hit Nick) made me question what we are doing, but we all know the risks and these things can always happen. There were a few factors involved and nothing was deliberate.
Fortunately nobody is seriously injured, that is down to the MSA safety regs and everyone involved in the technical committee over the years.
There are lessons to be learned, but not one factor or person can be entirely blamed.
Bully's rant is magnificent and wholly accurate. But you must spend less time in the "piglane" ;D
I agree with Bully.
Chris/Nick:- the plate at the back of the Belgian rollcage is there because they're allowed to cut the rear of the body away, thus exposing the fuel tank in the event of a collision.
The regulation was introduced after such a collision.
Quote from: Chris Yates on March 29, 2015, 20:04:18
Quick video of the 1st lap shunt from the very back of the grid : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw9GgCc6fO4
If for some reason Youtube is showing the full 35 minute version (it says it has edited it down), go to about 14:00 to see the start
At approx 54 seconds on this footage there appears to be a battery going across the front of the blueberry muffin, am i seeing things?
That was mine..marshalls kindly put it back in my car where it proceeded to eat through the floor as it leaked over the next few days
Assault and battery? ;)
Quote from: Nick Roads on February 17, 2016, 18:12:39
That was mine..marshalls kindly put it back in my car where it proceeded to eat through the floor as it leaked over the next few days