Can we investigate fitting fuel injection to the cars for 2016? I know it has been discussed before.
My main issue with the championship is the carb there are too many variables, if you do well or not pretty much comes down to if you've got the right carb set up.
The other issue is how easy it is for the carb to get blocked, as happenend to me in the first race at Brands.
It's frustrating after spending so much money it is all runined by a minute spec of crud! This shouldn't happen.
I realise that there will be a set up cost for inject but ultimately it will be cheaper in terms of setup time and rolling road cost and the we will have a level playing field in this area which should result in better closer racing, without certain cars streaking ahead or others langusihing at the back coughing and spluttering.
We might even get some recognition from the MSA for going 'green' as fuel injection should be cleaner.
What do we need to do to make it happen ??
As I understand it Kris has just purchased the bits to try single point injection and will be trying multipoint in the future. Once I've got another engine together I plan to try multipoint on the road.
I agree it's probably the best bit of progress we can make with a 2cv engine and I think there's something to be said for discussing ecu pools or controlled mapping.
You could put in a tech proposal for injection, with a club plus class in 2016 running injection and full club running injection in 17 to do some sort of phased intro? That'd be my view but I'm sure others will have a different view and won't hesitate to share.
Or to avoid yet more expense, get rid of Webers and everybody return to running Solex......
Either way, as Louis suggests, any member can submit a technical proposal for the tech committee to investigate. Sounds like Kris and Louis are already investigating anyway!
There is something called an "Ecotrons" EFI kit for 400cc to 800cc engines (http://www.ecotrons.com/products/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/), which has been fitted to a 2CV road car and replaced the Solex quite well apparently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRcd6JjKzVU) - this would be single point injection.
The good thing about the above solution is that you get everything you need as part of the kit - ECU, wiring, throttle body, sensors, etc.
My gut feeling is that anything multipoint would end up becoming a bit bespoke and people might have to come up with their own solutions, which would negate the point of looking at fuel injection in the first place!
The bad news is that the Ecotrons kit is about $699, or £477. I guess if we were buying in bulk that might come down a bit.
I was building a multipoint system using BMW 1100 throttle bodies. After seeing this is pretty clear my time would be better put into a SPI kit... There is quite a alot of technical issues and rules that will need to be addressed in regards to the throttle body and Mapping though. The kit that Chris posted looks a viable option but I'd personally like the throttle bodies to be controlled and the ECU/mapping to be free.
Edit.. After a quick discussion with Louis I'm going to carry on with the twin TB design to show at Cadwell because there some benefits, Mainly space on top of the engine for the swirl pot, Pump, ECU, ect. Yes it dose require a slight bit more work but could very easily be put together in kit form.
Sounds good Kris.
If I was going to define a set of requirements they would be;
1. There would be two kits, the engine components so you can have the same set up on several engines and the car components, fuel pump, wiring, ECU
2. Simple(ish) installation
3. Minimal components, doesn't hamper engine changes
4. Plug and play, no on-going ECU mapping needed, although the club should be allowed to introduce a new map
5. Reliability - all new components used if possible
6. ECUs can be swapped between cars - avoids cheating
7. Power increases not required, just a reliable 43.5 bhp
Blimey the 2016 season is shaping up to be an expensive start up - Fuel injection - Hans Device, Hans Device Helmet, New seat if I want to race at Spa, New Belts blah blah, I agree I also had issues with fuel which was a right pain in the AR*E, Sh*t happens although along with 3 or 4 cars that had issues nearly 20 didn't - there are many variants of the Weber along the pit lane, I believe some are using the Short Circuit version, and like me a few are using the Club Spec supplied by the club and I have seen a couple of other ones too!
Yes 2016 will be expensive! I need a helmet, HANS and seat too!
And yes there are several types of Weber, we have the club one which doesn't have the filter in the carb top which is probably where the crud is getting in. So we could go to the expense of buying the different carbs but then that is an expensive change in itself.
The other issue that this doesn't address is the carb jetting challenges we continually face.
I've emailed the Ecotrons crowd to see what they could do for us so lets not discount anything until we have some facts and figures.
Cheers
Small Bills, Big Thrills......... There goes the ethos of the club
I can understand the frustrations ,however we have always had carb issues fuel surge ,starvation around long corners,water etc. If we need to block off a hole in a carb top that seems infinitely cheaper than fuel injection,
However if we are to go down that route i would personally prefer as few non standard parts as possible and single point,that way you don't have twin cables/balance issues.I would also prefer to see ecu's being fixed and exchanged at meetings rather than free and open to the largest cheque book.
Holy hell.
I'm sorry if this is out of order but motor sport is not a given that you finish a race.
I can see why people would like to go down the injection route but as Trevor pointed out are we not supposed to be a series will low bills.
I can see many people not entering unless different classes are acknowledged and points awarded accordingly.... where a privateer has as much right to a win in class as a factory run team
The carb I run on my car cost me about £10 off eBay. I have a brand new one that will not run for all the tea in China.
Just my views but hey ho I appreciate people's have their opinions.
And as for the close racing etc. I have just enjoyed the best 2 races of my 2cv life. I had a battle ;D with many fellow racers from the lights out to the flag.
Okay in the 1st race I was quite a few seconds of the leader and the following 2, but I was beaten by 4 extremely talented and proven drivers. I'm not too sure the time that covered the group of cars I was involved with but I think around 1 second strong.
In the 2nd the gap to the leaders was a lot less.
I think that a certain degree of credit should be given to the driver !!!
Let's be straight here if the weber is soooo much better than the solex how did mim racing finish 2nd at Donnington last time we raced there !!!!!! Maybe we should all be running the solex
Quote from: nick nice toes
I appeciate advances in the series but i can think of a couple of areas that should be addressed first. link=topic=2345.msg10333#msg10333 date=1429040832
Holy hell.
I'm sorry if this is out of order but motor sport is not a given that you finish a race.
I can see why people would like to go down the injection route but as Trevor pointed out are we not supposed to be a series will low bills.
I can see many people not entering unless different classes are acknowledged and points awarded accordingly.... where a privateer has as much right to a win in class as a factory run team
The carb I run on my car cost me about £10 off eBay. I have a brand new one that will not run for all the tea in China.
Just my views but hey ho I appreciate people's have their opinions.
Not too sure what has happened below as per quotes etc.
I think a bigger phone and drier fingers is in order
My memory isn't good.
I remember the days when I was fast and Pete was good looking...
But I also remember that the reason for the introduction of the weber was to even out the field. It was a "fit and forget" whereas the Solex was apparently difficult to get 2 alike.. Quite amusing.
Potentially injection could be a way to even out the field.. personally i'll take some convincing
My concern with this level of development would be the effect on grid numbers and the attraction to potential new members.
The grid needs all the help it can get and to be attractive as a club to new members and 2cv enthusiasts we need to keep the ethos of cheap close motorsport, and keep the cars fairly close to their road going siblings.
I'm not convinced by the Weber, so on that front I sympathise with Richard. it has replaced the problems we had with the spluttering solex with a different set of problems. But these problems are the same for all of us. And were the same for all of us with the solex.
I'm not convinced that with Injection all these issues would disappear, they would just be replaced by a different set of variables..
Its 2cv racing..
A bit of 2cv finding its way into the carb is part of the charm. And we have all suffered it.
I like many still hold a fondness for the Solex.
But we need to look at progress and try to tread carefully.
Remember, we have a tyre issue looming soon too!
(http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/clap.gif)
Well said Alec,
i think we look at the solex with rosetinted spectacles,it wasn't by any means perfect and finding more than one good one was not easy towards the end.Mr Crook was immediately 4 seconds quicker at Mallory after fitting the weber.
As much as I quite like the idea of it I think the introduction of injection would be a bad move really as the idea of fixed maps etc. is generally flawed as the fuelling requirements vary a lot from engine to engine even if they are apparently the same spec. this would worse than us all having to run the same jets in the carbs regardless of the engine spec.
For them to run properly a full map would be required for each engine & the map would need to be swapped over when the engine is changed.
A fixed ignition map is possible but this would only save a tiny amount of the setup cost. I could write a suitable ignition map in about 5 mins based on the advance curve as used at the moment that would only require a couple of power runs to finalize
I think this would just increase costs for the majority of drivers and not really increase the reliability a great deal as the high pressure pumps are notorious for packing up if any dirt gets in to them requiring replacement not just a clean out.
I think that far from making things even it would spread thing out even further.
That said I have loads of experience with aftermarket EFI on race cars, road cars & kit cars so louis or Kris if you need any help then give me a shout & i will try and sort out any issues you are having
I agree with Paul well said Alec - Development in motorsport takes time, and generally I think that up and down the pit lane if you ask for help or guidance you usually get it, like all of those who raced 'Pre Weber' the Solex did have issues but we learnt how fix the problem, the weber does have similar issues, we know how to fix them (even I can do it) If we start on the injection route with my limited knowledge of these things I don't know if I could fix it or even know where to start! So I would have to get someone else to do it, so that will come at a price.
I think everyone is agreeing though that we aren't in a good place with the Weber.
I understand that mapping works best if set for a particular engine but shouldn't we just have a fixed map based on a race engine built as per the regs. If someone has built up a non standard engine and it doesn't work for them then isn't that a way of making sure people run the correct spec?
Before we discount it let's find a workable injection set up and then we can way up the pros and cons. Could we have it as a 3rd alternative, i.e. Solex, Weber or Injection ?
When I was racing, I built four engines (all to the regs) and each one was different..... (though all had some form of oil leak before anyone else says it!)
I am not reading that the consensus is that there is a problem with the Weber. Some people have had issues / problems, others have not..... Just like the Solex
It's pointless to increase the cost to competitors just because one person has an issue with one element of the power train. The club has been down this road every couple of years ( Cams, heads, valves, carbs etc).....
i know i`m not a front runner by any means but the attraction for me was the cheapness of the series (along with the 24 hour race) and the cost of parts etc after a decade of motorcycle racing extortion. I have used both the Solex and the Weber, and after a few season feel that we have got the Weber reliable but needs lots of setting up. Isnt this part of the fun of racing, playing around with jetting and AFR meters, if it was just plug and play it wouldnt be as much fun.
I would be concerned that the spirit of racing a cheap french corrugated breadbin would be lost and money would be buying results, like in so many other classes.
Surely what Ash has done for the economy class is the sort of thing we should focus on, to attract more new entrants, with lower costs. I would not be in favour of fuel injection.
Unfortunatly all engines however carefully built to a spec vary in their fuel requirments, standard road cars have many sensors to measure, controll & adapt the fueling for standard production engines with adaption maps and millions of pounds of testing & development to get it all to work. i dont think we have the tecnology within the club to emulate that with old 2cv engines and a variety of engine builders.
Although fuel injection would probably suit me personaly I would say that any change like this should be very carefully considered as it will have significant impact on the series with many drivers not wanting the expence or complication of fuel injection.
So at the moment there's a lot of hurdles for injection to overcome but ultimately every mainstream OEM uses injection because in many respects it's better than a carb, undoubtedly they have millions of pounds and hundreds of engineers but I don't see why we couldn't attempt to over come the issues raised so far.
Therefore rather than raising further issues that are all hypothetical, I think we should, as Richard did make a list of requirements injection must hit to be considered:
Price - What is acceptable for one kit? What is the price of a Weber + a good number of jets in order to set it up and mess about with it?
£400? Is this correct? (assuming new) The highest performer should be the best driver not the guy with the biggest wallet or the most rolling road time, that's just my opinion though.
Performance - has to be able to make engine performance equal - map an ecu to a set of heads and a cam to produce a specified power at certain RPM points, then check that the ecu is correct for heads and cams and maybe the map too?
Reliability - has to do 2 24hr races and a load of sprint races.
Set up - Controlled manifold and plenum / air filter? Looks like single point is preferred method - synchronisation is a ball ache.
Stand alone - i.e injection kit all on the engine to aid quick removal as is currently possible.
Simplicity - it has to be a fairly simple system so that people aren't scared of it, it'd be nice if there was less witchcraft than a Jets and Emulsion tubes too. :P
Efficiency - As good as or better than the Weber?
Solex supply - http://www.ecas2cvparts.co.uk/carburettor-2cv6-1982-onward-2635-good-copy-solex-stock-notes-p-2092.html
I have no experience with the Solex copy and haven't asked Roy about it either but it seems there is now a ready supply but I'm conscious that many wouldn't want to negate their investment in the Weber, though this is true for Injection too.
Feel free to add to this list / change it / be constructive.
your memory must be bloody good alec if you remember pete being good looking!!!
Louis,
Fuel Injection has no place in 2CV racing, it is TOTALLY against the spirit and ethos of the club and it's aims in promoting the racing of the 2CV. Don't believe me? Read the Articles of Incorporation and Club Rules....
If you wish to race fuel injected cars, I would suggest 2CV racing is not the place for you to fulfil this desire.
I do understand why people would object to injection because I myself do enjoy the charm of a carburetor. Like Ian said, the setup is all part of the fun. That said though it pains me to see people paying to money to enter a race and spend 20 minutes spluttering around the circuit.
My view on it is that its just not going to be possible and like some have mentioned already not within the ethos of the club to try in implement it to the whole of club class. But I have no objections to having an Club+ class that runs injection if they so wish to. Say we had 8 or 10 cars in club+, 12 or so in club and a few in economy this would almost keep everyone happy. It would also mean that there would be more of a chance for people to win trophies! which can only be a good thing?
Having only just moved onto a Weber after years of sticking with a Solex, it would be just my luck that more possible developments were made ::)
This is how I see it:
It was the general opinion by the end of the last decade that it was proving difficult for everybody to source a decent Solex or get them running well.
I was fortunate enough to have a good Solex. Richard's was pretty good too. Dad's wasn't.
The introduction of the Weber was proposed at the 2009 AGM, to act as an alternative for anybody that couldn't get their Solex working. The Weber was to be restricted to certain jetting to prevent it from being superior to the Solex. I voted for the introduction of the Weber on this basis.
In 2010 it became clear that you couldn't simply bolt a Weber on if your Solex wasn't working, as the 'club' manifolds supplied weren't up to scratch.
At the first races the Weber and Solex runners were evenly matched. Over 50% of the grid had immediately switched to the Weber.
By the middle of 2010, it was becoming clear that some people were changing the jets in the Weber, as the carb was not working with the engine - I believe the scrutineer allowed this, though I do not understand why.
Over the years, the rules were relaxed to allow further development of the Weber, before jetting was tightened up again at the 2013 AGM (I think).
Eventually we realised we would have to move onto Webers as the Solex could no longer keep up. A shame, as there was nothing wrong with my Solex, though I accept it has benefited Dad. I don't know exactly how much money, and perhaps more importantly time, has been spent on getting our cars up to 'standard' but I do know it's a lot.
How long before we have a BMW engined, fuel injected 2CV on the grid? If we allow a Club+ class, those that can will, those that can't will fall by the wayside. As far as I'm concerned, it will destroy the club.
Sorry, rant over.
Not much of a rant Matt .
5/10
No swearing,far too much fact.
So another question... Did anyone spend time with a solex trying to develop it in the same way as we all have had to with the weber? (bar kris who threw his at the engine and it worked..)
I.e rolling road AFR and lots of jets / time?
Solex and dyno occasionally.
No to fuel injection. If you want to go faster then go and race something faster.
Quote from: Louis on April 16, 2015, 13:35:35
So another question... Did anyone spend time with a solex trying to develop it in the same way as we all have had to with the weber? (bar kris who threw his at the engine and it worked..)
I.e rolling road AFR and lots of jets / time?
And i thought you were bright!You're normally such an intelligent chap Louis, What do you think?
We had the addition of forced air,airboxes, air filters on necks,off necks, inverted cones, dual cones.K&Ns that vibrated themselves apart.The only thing we lacked was emulsion tubes and rebuild kits.We had all the problems of the weber and more besides,nothings changed other than a slightly faster lap time and you can get spares.
It's not about going faster Derek it's about being able to have a decent race!
A clean tank and good filters are needed to run well on a carb or injection a bit of crud will stop a £70 high pressure pump as quick as blocking a jet
Basic set up parts would be around a grand and then to be safe you need spares imagine at the start of a 24 hour race it would be a nightmare if your ecu went down so a £600 spare ecu ? Just in case
The trouble is that no system is 100% reliable all that happens is that you exchange one set of faults for another so blocked jets will be exchanged for bad connections, troublesome fuel pumps, electrical interference & software crashes in reality if you are looking for 100% reliability then motorsport is not for you.
one of the things that appealed to me about 2cv racing was the single class (prior to economy class) so wherever you finish on track that is your race result not as in many series where they are split into several classes and nobody watching is quite sure who is racing who.
I can understand the idea and reasons behind the economy class but to start adding classes either with bike engines or an injected club+ class as far as I can see will only detract from the series and result in smaller entries
Hello, My Name is Geo and one of the administrators (Russel) of the international 2cv friends forum has pointed me to this topic.
You must know I'm driving my 2cv's for the last 7 years with a programmable fuel-injection and ignition (Megasquirt) with as a highlight
converting my 2cv to a turbo drivven car. (Smart turbo and intercooler).. I think most of you have seen my youtube videos...
But in my opinion all these aftermarket programmable efi systems are made for 6, 8 or more cylinder engines but not reelly for our a small 2cv engines.
All these systems like Vems, Megasquirt, Emerald, KMS aso. are way overkill for our little engines (my opinion)
Thats why I started about 4 years ago develloping my own programmable electronic ignition system called 1-2-Spark.. which I made especially for the 2cv
Some of you guys already know it and at this time there are about 40 cars (still increasing) driving on it all over Europe and beyond..
I'm making a sort of plug and play sets for the 2cv, because I think this is the only solution which works for most 2cv drivers...
You can adjust all parameters by laptop and yes you are right, all engines are slightly diffrent, thats why I give a base map on which every 2cv/Visa will run better then on points, but if you
really want the last hp out of your engine you need to tune it..
About a year ago I called my ignition to be ready, my electronic ignition can do the same or more (multispark) then the averidge programmable ecu will do..
Now this year I have started to devellop my own programmable injection system as well which is called 1-2-Squirt and I'm driving it for about 2 months now..
It will need still a year to make it perfect but it runs very well already..
Now I'm not writing this to advertise my ignition or injection (however.....) but if I can somehow help or give advise please let me know....
at last I want to highlite my topics at the international 2cv forum about my ignition and injection:
injection:
http://www.international2cvfriends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5509
ignition:
http://www.international2cvfriends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3003
(start at the last pages there are about 80 pages of my ignition)
and my turbo 2cv running on Megasquirt efi:
http://www.international2cvfriends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1100&hilit=turbo+intercooler
Please feel free to read about converting a 2cv to a programmable electronic ignition and injection (you need to register first but I think it is worth it....
At last I can say, it will bring you more horsepower and you don't need a rolling road to make it run about 2 hours on a racetrack and you will have a competitive car already....
and my opinion is electronic ignition with/and injection is more reliable then your Webers and Luminition...
Geo.
Matt
Head. Nail. Well and truly hit!!
Multi class racing is NOT the way to go....
If it's just about racing then why not just go back to Solexes instead of opening a whole new can of worms (which cost money)?
Moving back to Solex would cost me money, at least £500 for a couple of ECAS carbs...... ???
Nah, you're bound to have a couple lurking around somewhere in a box of stuff!
As lovely as Fuel injection sounds, we need to keep a level playing field and keep costs down. Having spent loads on jets this year, its not fair to go and change the rules again. The same thing happened in the early 90s, finally tracked down a decent 2CV4 gearbox to try and get nearer the front. Paid a furtune for it, only to use it once before they were band. Again in the early 2000s spent ages finding a quick solex only for the Webers to come in.
Can't we keep the rules the same for a few years, it only suits teams with big budgets and time to keep changing the rules!
>:(