Classic 2CV Racing Club

So what do we do next year?
Sprints only at       £ 180 per 10 laps
1hour races at       £ 350 per hour
2hour races at       £ 230 per hour
Double headers at £360 per meeting
2 part races with the grid for the second race set by the finishing order of the first race ?
Its your club and the more people that have a say in what happens hopefully the more cars we may see on the grid next year.
Should we have a class that brings the standard cam engine back as we did at snetterton this year ? If so how standard should this class be ?
My proposal for the agm will be to have an enduro championship based around four 2 hour races and the 24 hr race with two classes. Each car would have to stop 3 times during the 2 hour races allowing teams to run with up to four drivers ,this would mean that 24hr teams could race together at each race during the season.Points would be given equally to both classes and there would be one championship which could be won by either class.
I understand we may have difficulties with members doubling up instead of racing their own cars but the best grid we have had last year and this year has been the 24 hr and my thought is that this could encourage those teams to race more than once a year.
We would need 20 cars to sign up for this for it to be able to work. For the BARC to move on it i think that those 20 would have to put the first race entry fee on the table at the AGM.
If you think this is bollocks then lets have some idea of what else we can do.
Paul Robertson

Hello (from the web master)

Just to explain the workings of the polls..... each notice-baorder can vote once and once only and all voting is secret (even from me).

I have moved this poll into 'racing - non 24 hour' from 'general discussion' to help to keep the twelve or so focussed topics relevant to their specific subject.  In the past topics were random, 'amusingly' titles and addressed by people with disguised names.  This helped to raise the level of confusion.

I hope that this makes things clear and achieves the visibility that Paul's message deserves.  If there are further points about this 'web matter' it would be better continued in the 'web matter forum section to avoid usiong space in the racing-non-24-hour section.

Best wishes from Dick Roberts
(and well done for a cracking Croft - 'movies' are being prepared for the web as we speak.)

Excellent idea to put up a poll paul.  

As a non-racing member (did i renew this year??!!)  :?:  I love the extra action that the double header weekends bring, and have indicated as such by my vote.  

Many of you may know that I love nothing better than taking someones pride and joy that they spent all week building on the bench with maticulous attention to detail, and pulling it apart on the floor in the paddock, (raining or not) fixing it, and making a mad dash for the assembly area for the enduro or next session.  That's part of the appeal to me.  I'm sure i am not alone as a mechanic, in saying that the more track time that there is the better the chance of having something to do.  That's why i go.  (Oh' and to get trolley'd and go for the record of throwing up at every circuit during a season.  Have been close a few years ago).  

With regard to the sprints.  Great action, tight racing, and even if there is damage, if the car comes in to the pits we'll fix it, and try to get back out racing.  (The driver's paid his money, may as well make the most of it.).  10 points for the finish is worth it in my view.  

Enduro's are fantastic to watch and the developments on track also mean we have things to do in the pits.  Thinking about when to bring in drivers, strategies, coordinating stops, and fixing broken fans, punctured tyres etc.    

Mechanics go to be involved.  More racing means more involvement, which means a greater sense of satisfaction and enjoyment.  

Go for the most track time, but if nothing else go for all double headers, with multiple format races.  More action on and off the black stuff.  

Cheers

Andrew

Ideally I'd like to see both sprints and enduros next year and into the future, although there are good reasons for and against going one way or the other.

I hope that whatever is decided, whether in favour of it or not, the cars and people are still seen at events with the same enthusiasm displayed at the weekend.

Catherine

PS Found my car, should be at Silvy!!

I would just like to add my twopeneth worth:

1. When the club started it provided a very low cost form of racing if not the lowest. This is not the case for sprint racing anymore for two reasons: a) the cars are quirky and require specialist knowledge and constant fettling between races; b) close racing inevitably leads to body damage and associated cost and c) other clubs offer cheaper alternatives with less maintenance.

2. The dates for this year's races are awful. Less than two weeks before and after the 24-hour race is daft and three events in the school holidays causes at least this driver to miss two.

3. At the last AGM we voted for sprints and Enduro's but those voting have not supported.

4. When I joined the club I did so solely to do the Enduro's most of which were at least an hour and a half long.

5. The cost of preparation, travel and time is much the same whether one does one fifteen minute sprint race or one four hour race. The cost per hour/minute is a lot less for longer races so I support 2 hours.

:? WARNING: this is a long piece of writing - please make sure you are sitting comfortably before continuing.  Ready?  Here goes......

In my opinion, a combination of both sprints and enduros is the best (much like we have at the moment).

Sprint races seem to be getting a lot of stick lately.  Yes, they are expensive but motor racing generally is.  It is a shame that the BARC constantly put prices up - it is certainly getting to breaking point.  But that's why it is up to the club to find ways around the problem - the discount on offer if you competed at Donington and Croft an excellent example.

Is sprint racing good value for money?  No, you effectively pay £15 per lap.  But the thing is, when I'm on the track I'm not thinking "this is costing me loads", I'm thinking "this is great racing".  Sprint races offer racing right to the flag.  Take Croft for example - in the sprint race we had a 6 car battle for 3rd right until the end.  In the enduro we had a 7 car battle for 3rd - until halfway.  By the end there were only 2 battles on the track - fortunately one was for the lead so it provided a good finish.

People moan about panel damage in sprint races - I saw a fair bit of panel damage in the enduro race as well!  How come people can afford to buy a racing car, buy all the necessary safety gear, even pay a ridiculous fee to be a BARC member - but can't get over the last hurdle of a race entry fee?  OK, we're not all made of money but if you can afford to go racing in the first place surely affording the entry fee shouldn't be a problem.

Travelling 200 miles to get to a circuit for a 15 minute race is a pain - that's why we also need enduros or double-headers, to make the journey worthwhile.  But concentrating entirely on enduros is a mistake, in my opinion.  A lot of people are saying they would race if we did enduros - but we already have endurance races so why aren't they racing now?  Grid for Croft sprint race - 15 cars.  Grid for Croft enduro - 15 cars.  Enduros offer good racing for the first half - after that the field gets spread out, only a handful of drivers know who they are trying to catch, and the spectators won't have a clue.  Endurance races are, by definition, not seat-of-your-pants racing, at least most of the time after the pitstops.  Enduros offer better value for money than sprints but to enter an 2-hour enduro will cost a fortune in gross terms.  OK, so the fee is split between drivers - but I want to win the drivers championship myself, not share with 3 other people (sorry Richard!) :wink:

This might all seem anti-enduro.  It's not meant to be!  But if we concentrate entirely on enduros I strongly believe the championship will become less of a driver vs. driver competition and more of a series of exhibition races.  You just have to look at the Belgian 2cv racing - apart from the Spa 24hrs there are very few races.  We could be like that as soon as 2007.

Here's my suggestion - sprint races still form the basis of the championship.  Enduros are offered where possible to allow more drivers to race and to get more track time.  But let's have a bit of variety - 2 hour enduros are fine every now and then (perhaps you could even split them into four 30 minute races a la Lydden Hill - £165 for two 30 minute races is a bargain - get your entry in now! :D ).  Why not have some non-championship races (at Stowe?) with a reverse grid to allow those drivers at the back to race at the front?  Or perhaps determine the grid for race 2 by the result of race 1?  I heard talk of a Direct Debit for entry fees (i.e. you pay £100 per month to the club and this pays for all your entry fees, spreading them out throughout the year rather than grouping them between April and October).  Seems like quite a good idea :?:

If you're still reading this then I applaud you - you have great dedication :P .  I feel very strongly about this which is why I have written so much.  Putting all your eggs in one basket is very dangerous - it's a win or bust situation.  Most importantly, I urge everybody to think very hard about what they want and to vote at the AGM (29th October) - like Paul says, it is your club so don't waste the opportunity.

Matt

I disagree that one hour is an enduro it is two sprint races.

The proof of the pudding...............we are not gettingt he grids

I agree with a lot of what matt is saying and my proposal is based on those people who have said that value for money and overall cost is their overriding concern and those who have said they want longer enduros and that 1hr is not enough.
Whatever we do or dont do next year we have to start getting 20 + cars on the grid  or we run the risk of losing championship status in 2007 .We  MUST come up with a solution that will stop this from happening or we may end up with only the 24hr race.

Are we looking too closely at ourselves?  We are committed to the series and reading these notices so perhaps we are not the only or the right audience.

Surely there are 3 types of driver: Current drivers, Old 2cv racer owners and new drivers who don't have cars.  Perhaps we need a range of solutions that meet the needs of each class.

e.g.

Current drivers - need more track time per weekend
Old 2cv owners - need to be able to compete without changing their cars
New drivers  - need something easier to use to enter the series

Looks like most of the above is covered by Paul's email and maybe by Aubrey's but if we need fresh blood perhaps we also need to focus on the New Drivers.

What are other clubs doing?

I think that the sprint/enduro format is good; the only thought I've had on it is that the two races required may prevent us from being accepted for certain meetings, so it may be that we could be more flexible if required?

As a very infrequent racer (once!) this year, I'm probably part of the problem but the calendar just didn't fit with everything else.

I'd have loved to go to Croft but was at a wedding in London, for instance.

I do intend doing a bit more next year, though.

I don't think we will ever be able to please everyone,what ever we do.
Some clear thinking is needed to determine what things are making us come racing or stay away.
Remember that each driver is a customer,choosing to spend their hard earnt money.As with any other business you sometimes need incentives to get people in,special deals etc.We have in my opinion had a bit of a poor year by our normal standards,not only in grid numbers but also rubbish dates for meetings,the last 6 weeks has been too much of a rush and anyone with kids or wives or both to pack and keep happy,any of us in this situation will know that racing is only half your problem.
I do agree with Matt that it scares me a bit that we won't have a sprint championship as he is correct in pointing out we have seen almost a carbon copy of our situation being played out in Belgium,the result is a couple of races and the 24 hour with grids falling all the time.
Having done this racing lark for sometime now I personally would like to see sprint and enduro rounds as voted last year but it does seem that most complaints are about race costs in comparrison to race time and then followed by distance travelled to get to races in comparrison to race time.Clearly we cannot move circuits and no matter what you race car wise you will still need to go to Lydden if the championship dictates it and you want to do the championship rounds.
As far as costs go,we don't have a lot of control over this,especailly now we don't have have many cars out,this will reduce our clout,I'm sure Dale will be putting the nice healthy MX5 races higher on his priority list than us but at the end of the day who can blame him,its business.
The long and short of any amount of talking is that with out cars on the grid we will loose our races,so if you haven't had your car out recently best you do it soon before there is nowhere to race it.

Pete has a good point about having the ability to race our cars.  

Am I right in my assumption that there must be 50 or so cars in existance all of which will have at least got basic mods done even if they dont have engines?  
So where are they?
Will their owners be bringing them out in the foreseable future?
If not, are they for sale? (lets try and encourage new poeple by publicising the cars for sale, maybe national mags, autosport etc).
Are the current owners aware of our impending situation?  Maybe they'll bring them out as a result.

The point is to make everyone we have ever known in the club (including all old member lists) aware of the fact that the club needs their support. Perhaps with a mail shot?

The grave outcome of this is that the cars will be nothing more than showpieces, or garden sheds, if we cannot race them, and as such will be worthless.  With an active championship they still have a value.  Does everyone want to loose the thousands their car is worth because the series has folded?????

Maybe a proposal in the making, to mail shot every known member past and present, market the club in magazines with adverts for cars etc, and push the 2CVGB to advertise the club with article space, and again advertise.  If the club has to pay a few quid to advertise, then surely this would be worth the expenditure to keep the championship alive.

Regards

Andrew

Like Derek I suppose I am part of the problem.

I fell into the club some six or seven years ago on the back of the 24 hour race and ended up totally rebuilding the car that had become mine and making into into a competitive device. Over the last three years I have done three engines with cams, been to rolling roads to get the car set up etc. and probably done about six races in total - because I want to be in the midfield, not going around at the back. Each year I start with just about enough money to do a bit of work on the car and either the 24 hour OR the other races.

I would like to stay with the club (I suppose I can simply buy a seat at the 24 hour but if you prep a car yourself you know what you are getting) but I am not clear whether selling the car would ensure that it goes out on a more regular basis. Are there really no cars out there and a profusion of drivers with the budget and inclination to race one? I suspect not.

Like Aubrey, the dates for the races in the mid summer race were not good for me. I seem to be better at long distance races therefore I will vote for those but I am clear that my vote should not be as valid as those that race at every meeting.

I believe that there are several issues at stake at the moment. Each one requires attention but not one individually is the one that will put everything back to the good ol' days. We need change as without change nothing moves forward.

Technical issues with regard to the camshaft change introduced for 2004 appeared to result in the first signs of a reduction of grids. I think the club was right in clarifying the situation which had been under the most suspicion more than any other for the previous years. A lot of people didn't go through with fitment of the '04 cam but preferred to wait see what the results of the change would bring.  In hindsight it would have been better to run both for a period of time but this wasn't permitted under the ruling voted for at the AGM.  We now see a suggestion of allowing the '03 engines to be run but with restrictive measures on them. Look at Snet 2004. I, Richard/Matt and one other were the only entries. Our car was not competitive with the top 5/6 cars but could cut it with the rest. Without our 90min breakdown [loose wiring plug!!!] and arm change we would have finished likely in the top 6/8. Perhaps the message that, potential entrants to the race past and present, was that without the 04 engine the dream would not be achievable. Also those who do not race but still have cars with 03 spec. may feel that they have lost two years of development time and do not have the time or inclination to catch up.
If the 03 spec engines were permitted without Snet 04 restrictions to those who wish to use them it might give those with 03 cars gathering dust  a chance to race again when the mood takes. Any 03 spec car that "appeared to be too quick" would attract unnecessary attention from the technical committee, as would an 04 car.
   It has been mentioned that perhaps up to fifty race cars may still exist. Find them. Tell the owners that they can return to race with their 2003spec cars. No different classes are needed. A 2003 well driven car will beat a modest 2004 entry. Let Pete or Phil demonstrate to these people if possible.

Cost of entry is an issue. We have stuck with BARC for many years now. Other organising clubs would have liked to have the benefit of our full grids but, not at the moment.

The race format is the issue that appears to be top of the pile at the moment. It is an issue but again one of several and does need addressing. We have a poll at the moment on the forum board which is leading us to believe that the way forward is through endurance racing. I am in no way way decrying the forum board but just think, it only records the vote of those registered users who actually read the forum board. There is not enough information to vote on an issue as important as that that might lead to the  removal of the sprint championship. The last season we were blessed with more or less full grids the format used was sprint rounds at every meeting including Spa and Mondello and an enduro round to make the meeting worthwhile.  We need a vote from all registered members, associated members and ex members from say the past five years. Ask the key questions of what might bring back hopefully 10-12 cars.  Then collate the results.
I believe that we need to know potentially which circuits we are likely to use for an enduro series and which circuits would likely constitute a sprint championship. Some of these would coincide obviously.
Cost, for the sake of this discussion, should be cash divided by track time. Cost seems to be reflected in the prestige of the track [Brands Hatch, Silverstone, Oulton Park, Donnington etc]. Value for money seems to be at circuits such as Lydden, Anglesey, Stowe.  Some circuits have good potential for social functions eg Pembrey, Cadwell, Croft. What seems to make a good season is a mix of all three. What about a long weekend in Ireland/France with plenty of track time each year.
The race at Brands has been interesting for the last couple of times we have been there. IE Forty minute enduro with driver change but the first 10 laps being the sprint race. Should this format be considered? The cost to the circuit owners is reduced by way of only one qualifying and only one race to set off. Very little downtime. We get a sprint race and an enduro with two drivers. At circuits such as Anglesey and Stowe it may be possible to increase track time to between one and two hours. It would then be possible to include more driver changes.
Let us also consider the racing from the crowd and commentators view. We already are perceived as a "smile" event. ATB has worked very hard to get both to understand other sides to the event. A sprint race of 10 laps generally receives good reviews on closeness throughout the field from both. Interest after this period tends to recede. In an enduro race confusion tends to start on the first driver change and only is resolved at the flag when the results sheet is available. The pit knows who is winning and where second generally is but who is 7th? Who is chasing 7th and by what gap. At Snet and later at Mondello information by way of monitor [it only needs one] completely changed the race for those in the middle and at the back. Via pit board the driver can be relayed why he really is driving in circles without wondering who he is chasing and is that car behind for position or not.
Double headers have been voted for in the past but not really been taken to heart. Using the Brands format at venues such as Pembrey it would be possible to run "4" races over two days. What really needs to come out this is to retain a mix of all what we have done in the past, increase track time and reduce track costs. As we are all paying the same to get to the circuit we need to ensure that the format encourages cars to be entered for all races.
Payment throughout the year by direct debit to the club could prove to have benefits. If a reduction on entry fees for people using this facility was introduced then the cost of racing goes down that is offered by the club. This would encourage some of the occasional racers to more entries but not stop those who still selected certain venues. Entry through BARC would still have to be available to those for whatever reason wanted to say start racing our formula. It would be a potential barrier if made mandatory within the regs. Look at the offers BARC have made this year over entries. If the club were handling the entry fees then perhaps a better deal may be available with BARC.

The social side appears to be in a good state. Croft was a good example of what is possible. It allows the support people and other teams to feel more involved with one another. It is good to see that when a function is arranged how many others want to help.

This is designed as a discussional document and so long as we discuss then change will happen and the club will go forward.

Steve

Steve ,Circuits for enduro's would be pembrey ,anglesey,croft and snetterton.
Ihave stated my proposal as an example of what i and others i have spoken to would like to do it can only happen if the club as a majority vote for it .Iam sure there are many others with different ideas lets have them lets come up with something that people will support and enjoy

Hello

A comment from an observer.... Paul's topic and poll with 221 views 14 detailed replies and 17 votes has clearly been successful in generating a lot of material to help the club steer an optimum path to racing in the future.

While the debate has been focussed (unlike the historic 'cam shaft' forum splintered debates) I think it might be helpful if someone were to summarise the views-so-far because it's getting to be difficult to read the full mass of information and to make replies to points in the detail without the risk of confusion.

A summary (or even seperate strings of the key areas) could help to bring the full benefit from the input so far by giving a clear springboard for the next round of coments.

These forum debates are never a perfect solution but the (just an) idea I propose might make it easier to reach the best conclusion.

Best wishes - Dick Roberts

Surely one of the main issues is this. look at a regular grid. Most drivers have been racing for over 3 years. Many for much longer. This indicates that the racing is good enough as it is and the club is friendly with a good social side. People do choose to just do the 24hr race and thats it due to money, time, family etc. Some drivers choose to do 1 or 2 sprints or enduros and not campaign the championships due to again money, time, family, etc. All these people are supporting us and should be praised for using their car even if its only once. So who's going to fill the remaining 10 grid slots? NEW DRIVERS

This year we've had Shaun and Ben regularly competing. Shaun with the SAS boys and is doing very well. Ben makes huge efforts to get the races (cars kept 100miles away etc) and is enjoying it. But is it easy to join our club? does anyone actually know we race 2cv's? If you bought a 2cv race car and came racing would you be competetive? and if not why come back if you're racing on your own, its boring.

Think back only 4 years ago, grids were oversubscribed. We (Matthew and me) started racing with people like Allan Glide, john parker, etc and we were slow because we didn't know what we were doing, but it didn't matter because you had a cracking race with others who were novices or those who had slow cars. If your a novice now who are you racing with?

Ok main point sorry - we need new members and like any club you have to find them, we (Matt and me)came through 2cvgb as many others have so we should still have a presence there. The club has money so lets spend it on attracting new members. The racing is good and the current format allows 2 championships and should please the majority. Look at legends and look more recently MX5. It was only Lydden last year i think that the MX5's had a token grid, less than us. Is it a co-incident that they have press/promotion people working for their championship. If there is demand for cars people who have chosen not to use their cars, they will sell them, look at the silly prices and the amount of cars for sale (eg. lots) before the first snetterton race when the 24hr recieved loads of hype.

Heres whats been done currently in my eyes as a member who doesn't know everything

Dick and yvette do a cracking job on the website, so its current and good, but he relies on people contributing articles as well which they don't do normally

Matt writes a cracking snail pace (i try to help), but its internal only. We could get it professionally printed and use this to send out

I write an article a month for 2cvgb (not printed any yet this year!, but thats due to the editor and will hopefully get it in the mag this month!)

5 race cars and some new banners were present at the world 2cv meeting in scotland and we had a exhibition and engine change race.

Wayne took his car and the banners to snetterton once again for a charity event

And maybe the club is promoted in other ways as well which am not aware of. Anyway is this enough? are we surprised at the lack of new members? could we do more?

I'll finish there sorry if its disjointed. Richard

I would prefer to do sprints & enduros, but in the current format I cant afford it. If the "second race for £100" entry fee had not been lost in the small print of some of our combined race entry forms this year, more cars would have entered both races (mine would & I dont think Im alone). If we could get sprints as second races down in cost, my car would turn up more often. The social bit has got the family more interested now which helps a lot.

Will two hour races work? (how much are they, I assume the price on Pauls initial entry is a typo). I am concerned that the chance of ending up driving round by yourself for an hour at the end is too great, is this more like a track day?

Lydden hill is always the entry fee bargain of the year and the track suits the cars, to manage costs I think this should always be part of any calendar.

If we go for two hour races I will do some, but I prefer the action in the sprints.  Can we speak to BARC about discounts at multi race meetings next year.

BARCs costing for double headers makes them prohibitively expensive for me (I seem to remember that they used to be a bargain).

I agree with Dick we need some analysis of the results & it needs to be on a "what if" basis. It sounds as if the enduro format has most support, but a sprint races have a strong following. If we can get sprints for £100 on the same weekend as a 1hr enduro, would that change things?

No mick the price is correct at this years rates

A newcomer to the club writes .......

I joined the club solely to do the 24 hour race.
I had not interest in sprinting the car or even doing other endurance races.

I intended to continue racing endurance sportscars as well, doing the old Centurian challenge series. 75 minutes with a driver change - it was excellent racing & good VFM.
But this series has bitten the dust, replaced by 4*30minute races.
That just doesn't work for Graham & I, so we've left the series.
We'd return to something similar, but not a sprint based series.

The 24 hour race was such good fun that we'd like to more endurance races in our 2CV, so I'm totally in favour of going all endurance.
If the calendar works for 2006, I'll sign up for as many of them as I can manage, but see below.

Sprint races?
Like them, like them a lot, but I've got a single seater for the thrill, thanks.
The 2CV just doesn't do it for me over a short distance.

Aubrey raised a good point about dates.

My family have already taken Feb half term, 10 days at Easter, 4 weeks in the summer & October half term - it's a standard requirement for those of us with growing families.
I've already paid for daughter, son & wife to go away at the end of May so I can do the 24 hour race!
Don't chance the date Paul, not for 2006!

On top of that, Graham & I work extensively overseas, so our availability is limited.
And with that availability, I'd rather do an enduro event than a sprint because I get more miles & smiles for the time spent.
The financial equation works better as well.

FYI, I do "arrive & drive" in an FF2000 for £300 per race - that's preparation of the car, delivery to/from the track, storage, shared mechanic - is a 2CV significantly cheaper?

We also need to make an easy series to join as other series do.
With FF2000, for example, you can hire a car to try a race or 2.
Once you are in, this is the friendliest club around.
But we need to get more through the door, so to speak.

I'm putting my money where my mouth is regarding new members.
I saw the post from a student wanting some help to go endurance racing, so I'm lending them a spare car we have plus any parts they need from our stock.

OK, I am new to all this and don't have the experience/knowledge of you lot...but...I can see all sides of the story. I think this: if you are commited to the series, you will find a way to get the money and the time to race in it. I work most weekends through the summer and have a 2 and a 4 year old, but, if I race next year in the series, I will find a way to make every race. The problem is this....to go to Cadwell for the weekend to race in a 15 minute sprint would in real terms cost not £15 per minute/lap, but double that.....at least! Plus, one is away from their family for an entire weekend for 15 minutes of racing.

I am not sure what the answer is but this is definatey an issue. Personally, as an infrequent driver this year, I would be more encouraged to race next year if there were either double headers every weekend or a sprint and endurance of most of the weekends even if the enduro was only an hour. This would allow drivers to get more time on track for their money, or share the cost of the travel/transportation with another driver.

Not sure if this helps but as an outsider, it's my opinion.

Simon

It's different costs for everyone if you do it like that, Simon; for example, we had an 8 hour drive each way to get to Silverstone. The majority of drivers are in the south, so it makes sense for the races to be there or thereabouts, and the geographically-challenged amongst us will just have to deal with that.

I thoroughly enjoyed Silverstone (I think Graham did too); the format worked well and it was fun. I'd be in favour of maintaining the status quo - to go entirely to endurance races would, I think, marginalise us.

On a slightly different tack, I'm sure that I read recently that Castle Combe have gone independent (as in not affiliated to any particular club). Could we possibly get a multi-race weekend from this? Just an idea.