Messages

Cuckoos

This is interesting to me personally. I walked away from two massive crashes at Spa this year with just saw muscles. One of the C1s had a crash and it took 4 of them to open the driver door. Obviously a RTA is massively different from a racing accident because of all the safety regulations, but both the C1s and the 2CVs follow the same safety guidelines (as far as roll cages, seats, harnesses etc. go), the 2CVs have had almost 30 years of racing experience with constant improvements to safety and judging by my crashes at the weekend there is no reason as to why you should think the four drivers you are potentially responsible for would not be the safest they could be.

Thank you for getting back to me Katy and putting my mind at rest, Good to Hear first hand reports

[I]

OK Chris I think I need to clarify a few things for you.

Correct, I don't have a race licence, I haven't since 2002.  For the last 10 or so years I've been racing in the European Pro Kart Championship, club100 amongst others Series Feel free to look up 'Team Barnato'. You don't need a race licence to compete. 4 years ago I had a bad accident  at Teesside that put me into hospital. I should really have stopped then, but to be honest I'm an addict and I selfishly wanted to keep going, it wasn't until march this year that the veil slipped and I realised how selfish I was being to my family I made the choice to stop racing after this years Brit24.

As I put in early posts in this thread I want to go racing, maybe not with my arse in the seat but over the years I've realised I'm not that bad at team managing and I can prep karts and cars. There are a few drivers I know who have been intrigued by C1s, I've also have a number of companies who are happy to put there name behind me and the projects I run whether that's karting, cycling across the country, triathlons or whatever stupid midlife crisis adventure I have.

Thanks for clarifying the Belgian arms thing, and don't worry, I've took the hint we're not wanted.   ;)

p.s

Anyway, I think you have made your points repeatedly and clearly. We now seem to be looking for very spurious reasons why you think we should all replace our 2CVs with shiny new C1s.

I don't think you should replace your 2CVs, if you've been reading my posts fully, you'd see I've been trying to state how letting the C1 fill a tiny bit of the grid could help you make 2CV racing cheaper for you guys. You asked why I wanted to run a C1 well that's MY opinion - I'm not trying to ram it down anyone's throat or convert anyone They are just my reasons.

Same here, Sponsor happy to have their name on a recent, modern looking car.

Not doubting that the 2CV is a cult car, it is. Its an oddity and that does drag eye balls to it.  But much in the way Most people used to loook at the 2CV and say "my French teacher at school had one for those I can't believe you race them!" people and companies now recognise the C1 and have a similar connection

there's that and a safety thing on a personal note for me - its why I've stopped racing this year.... I've helped a young lady out of road going 107's after an RTA, she walked away from an accident I couldn't imagine even a caged 2CV surviving. If I'm being responsible for 4 drivers I want them to be the safest they can be.

Initially it was to find out more information about the C1s as your were were kindly hosting them at Angelesey (knowingly or not)  and Spa, but since then it been purely for the banter.

Both technically, don't have one, don't want to build one, don't have a race licence at the moment. 

But I don't want to race a 2CV. (sorry)

Technically one caters for 2cv's, Protoypes and Minis  ;) - the other isn't really an option on safety grounds.

while the c1 is technically eligible for the Creventic 24hr (http://www.24hseries.com/uploads/files/24hseries/regulations_2016/Class_overview%26Eligible_cars_24HSERIES_2016_version_12%20April%202016.pdf)

It would be frankly dangerous. As a Comparison the dutch Citybug series (running 78hp not our 68) are lapping Zandvoort, where the creventic slowest lap during qualy was a 1:58 and the TCRs that we'd be sharing Silverstone with were at 1:50's... the mid corner speed of a fully aero'd TCR Leon at full tilt coming across even the best driver in a C1 in the dark is a bloody scary proposal.

I'm not sure Helen would accept our entry!!

[Please can I be absolutely clear though:]

Really confused now, so cars in the eco class are about the same speed or faster than the club class?, club classs have race orientated parts like uprated camshafts etc, but an engine with standard camshaft can be faster... or the whole cheaper car is faster?

At the moment there is nowhere else that the C1s can do a 24hr race, or even a sprint race (other than Holland and that s bit of a commute for the regular season) but I don't want to do sprints. We can't do Britcar without being a danger to the GT3's  or even the lower TCs tripping over us, That why I'd be so grateful to be on YOUR grid. We're not the fastest thing on the grid, blowing past you on the straights, we're not the slowest things that are constnatly in your way mid corner.

Please can I be absolutely clear though: I am not here to bully my way on to the grid,  I am not here to take over your club, championship, or anything else. I'd just like to race a 24hr race with similar paced machinery, cheaply, in a friendly paddock of fellow Citroen fans.....

slipping back to the A35 analogy, they've build up one race grid as part of a very well attended and well funded meeting. Not a season and not a 24hr race. If you asked them about doing a A35 24hr I'm sure they'd struggle for grids too.  

The A35's have a full grid, and its expanding LM even mentioned they might have to put on a qualification race for them! and more are being built under Appendix K - its a rather different situation to what we find our selves in with 2CVs and its a rather different target a no I would not ask LM, but  I bet he wouldn't want Hybrids either.

And Yes, if all the C1s were the same speed and slower than the 2CVs Yes I totally would still build and race them.

Here's a point to consider. lets flip the conversation:
IF the 2CVs ran Club mandated parts, without the need for 36 pages regs cover the use of Ami 8/Super parts, this flywheel over that, and were FASTER...  do you think more people could be interested in racing them?

at the moment (from what I can see) you're trying to level a field of already slow cars (relatively)  by mandating parts that make them even slower and only slightly Cheaper.

I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

Whenever you add a faster class to a competitive championship, it invariably takes competitors away from the slower classes. This has been demonstrated time and time again in other championships. Basically, competitive people like to be at the top of the timing sheets, not the bottom!

Our club has tried to introduce an 'Eco class', in which many of the modifications that were viewed as being expensive were removed - standard flywheels, original carb, standard cam - and entry fees were discounted. But despite being cheaper to enter and run the cars, take-up on this has been very minimal. Only one or two cars have entered the class. A strong reason for this is that the cars are much slower, and therefore people don't want to enter when there's pretty much no chance they can win.

If we allow more faster cars into our racing, it basically sends out the message that you can't compete until you get the newer, faster car. That isn't what our racing is, or should be about.

If we were to allow the C1, it would have to be on the proviso that it would need to be SLOWER than a 2cv. Would you still all want to join in then?

As the outsider here can I make yet another controversial statement?

As mentioned above the club has:
* introduced the Eco Class to help reduce the cost of 2CV racing and help level the playing field,
* you've discounted entry fees for the Eco Class to help bring people in
* Allowed the bmw engines, to get rid of the stigma that the original engines may be awkward to get dialled in for the novice
*many many other things

and still this year alone the entry lists seems to be going down:

22 cars at Brands Hatch
20 at Cadwell Park
18 at Oulton Park
I think there is enough room for 'another class.'
I'm not sure how that would dilute 2CV entries.

Everything you've done so far is aimed at those already IN the 2CV fraternity. The things is outside the die hard fans I think there are fewer and fewer people who want to race 2CVs.
Nobody outside of 2CVs know how much the tuning parts banned from the ECO class cost relative to the allowed ones, No-one outside knows that carbing a 2CV lump is a knack to be learned and why a BMW engine is a better/easier to live with otpion. Your target audience seems to be:

1. 2cv enthusiasts (sadly a reducing group due to fewer and fewer being on the road)
2. 2cv enthusiasts who want to race a 2cv (a pretty thin tip of an already narrowing wedge)
3. people looking for cheap racing

I am your target audience for getting more cars on the grid. I have a budget, not a vast one, I want to go racing. I want to get as much racing out of my money as I can. I love 2cvs and I love watching 2cv racing.

Now take into account that I have the modern sensibility of an incredibly short attention span - like a lot of the potential audience who COULD put a 2cv back on the grid.  Compare the C1 regs with those of the 2CVs. How much knowledge of the history of the 2CV and variants is required and how much research you have to do (WTF are Pembro gearboxes? or Belgian arms??). I love watching 2CVs and 2CV racing and I more than have the technical ability to build one and run one....  but I wouldn't

I love the die-hard 2CV loyalists and their passion, but C1s are not here to take over. If you want to race a 602, you'll race a 602, if being at the sharp end was a major concern you'd be in a euro hybrid by now or a different series all together.

Once out of the car (granted more difficult in a C1) the 1kr is an incredibly simple engine. Earlier the 2cv engine was likened to the mini's A series. well the even though its fuel injected and has basic variable valve timing, they actually bolt together easier than longbridge's finest!

Controversial statement:
The C1 is the spiritual successor to the 2CV in terms of its design ethos... Simple transport for the masses, function over form yet its function begets it's form.... 


(lobs hand granade and runs)

Busy friday, Monday?

Sorry, this may soon a bit out of place but; if its been sucessfully done for 25 year why do you need the minis, hybrids and C1s? Surely if it was truly successful you'd still have a full grid of 2cvs and only 2cvs?

(Prepared to receive the Ban-hammer for that one)

In the medium to short term while everyone promotes 2cv racing and the challenges involved in it and tries bring more people in, get more cars out of garages and back on the grid, I think you might need to view C1s as a 'necessary evil'  (I mean its not like I'm asking you to accept an Aygo!!) so that there is a year 26 and a year 27  and so on

Hi Maisie,

Sorry if you felt my responce was effectively telling you to abndon all hope, and that the 2cv was doomed to become every more expensive. Thats not what I intended.

Put simply I want to find the cheapest 24hr series with the best atmosphere that I can enter a modern reliable car (I'd like to think my prep is pretty decent) and that lets us enjoy track time with similar paced cars without having to constant worry about stuff like jetting when we've got enough to learn as it is. If the cars are also easy to work on when stuff goes fruit shaped - then that would be perfect.

To me, that's what the C1s are, not a replacement for 2CVs but simply a feeder series into 24hr 'full size' racing for teams like mine that have outgrown other elements of the sport. If we get to share the operating costs event surely that makes your annual budget a bit easier too.