Messages

Hi

Nothing to do with the roof but on the same subject of flow. Many people polish their heads(not only me being folloically challenged) -- cylinder type. However, you will get increased air flow if you roughen the surface slightly. Ideally you could do with a hatch marking but a very gentle wire wool rub works well. Simply put a smooth surface causes air to cling to it and causes a drag effect. On brake disks this retains heat and is why you will see holes in performance ones. By unsmoothing the surface you will gain an increase in air flow plus an increase in turbulence. Two advantages follow. You are more likely to fill the cylinder and also create more swirl enabling more efficient combustion.

Just a thought

Terry Collier

Hi

You might want to explore the fuel guages and system used on microlights. These are very accurate and designed to cope with fuel sloshing around as a result of the movement of the vehicle. In addition you can get them with a readout that tells you consumption rate and how long you can go before needing to refuel. I calculated that this could save you two pit stops in the 24 hours, as you will tend to keep going until you have emptied the tank rather than go to time and not be able to use all the fuel available.

Cheers

Terry Collier :idea:

Hi

Firstly I have no problems with the proposal in concept, but I would like a full picture. It is interesting that we can now apparently get 50 mins racing track time for only £180 this is less than we are paying this year for 1 hour isn't it? How did we manage this? Secondly, taking Helen's point, if we achieve historic levels then we could only get 15 entries at best. This equates to a £3,600 shortfall. I assume we have this money. But what is the contingency plan. If it is to make up any shortfall by raising membership fees then assuming 50 racing members it would mean an increase of £72 per person. I accept that I am generalising a little on numbers but the downside implications do exist. I think that we should have the information to hand in order to give full consideration.

Surely this meeting can only be for discussion not voting!

Terry Collier :?:

Hi

The major thing that we have to discover is how many existing members of the Club can afford to go racing. Ignoring the 24 hours the cost of entries is £2,605 for the 2007 season. On top of this you could add another £2000 for transport, accommodation and sundry small repairs. This gives us a running minimum budget of £4,605. ( the reason I left out the 24 hours is that this should be a breakeven item if three extra drivers are charged for the experience)

There is little chance of this figure being reduced even if the 7 races are single day rather than weekend events. So to compete in a way that makes the Club effective requires this level of investment. It appears that not a large number are prepared or able to do this.

It is only when this is known is it worthwhile to look at other things. Other factors such as time availability etc are secondary to this.

If there is too little support for the historical type of season then we have two choices -- drop it all or radically revise our idea of how we fulfill our desire to race.

If the 24 hour race concept is believed to be attractive then we can expand it. Properly handled a three 24 hour race format is very marketable and could even generate profits for the Club. We know that Pembrey and Spa are options, although needing some work to realise. Linked to Snetterton we have a season. Running May, July and October it fits in with other formulas without conflict and has recovery space.

The other thing I would like to get clear is what exactly do we think that 2CV racing is? What are we as a product? Attracting people is good but all we talk about is whether we should Advertise or Promote. What are we promoting? What are we asking people to buy? Unless we can answer this we will go nowhere.

Terry Collier

Hi

What time is evening? Have we got a pit or somewhere to meet? this is just to know whether I need to wear my thermals and monsoon gear.

Terry Collier :lol:

Hi Frank

As one of the purchasers of the car -- I think that the roll cage and a couple of other pieces still remain -- I think that your points are valid and a good contribution to the debate. Finance is and will always be an issue with an expensive hobby, be it Golf, Boating or Motor Racing. In a different thread I have suggested in outline how the Club could help it's members by amortising the cost over ten months. It does not diminish the costs but helps when it comes to budgetting and by enabling us to pay BARC up front might help towards reducing race fees.

The question of ancilliary costs and social pressure involved in weekend events is another issue which I have sympathy with. I also gave up tents when I returned my woggle to Baden Powell -- I feel that old. However, there are issues concerning a day event. Firstly we could reduce the total number of races, assuming we could not get two races in one day and that this does not generate a cost which takes us back to square one, or we could maintain the number of races but with a reduced time interval between events. This would then impact upon the time pressure for repairing or preparing cars.

Another thing concerning ancilliary costs. If, finally we manage to get race track coverage throughout the country -- Knockhill, Croft, Anglesey, Brands Hatch, Mallory Park, Lydden, Cadwell Park, Silverstone, Donnington and Pembury -- for most competitors it would involve several nights away.

It is clear that there is no "magic bullet" which will cure all our ills. To maintain Championship staus BARC requires to run a certain number of races. To do this costs both money and time. All the Club can do is to make this as affordable as possible as it can do nothing about the other problems, in real life.

Oh just one thing Frank -- using Visa or something to fund races is not as good as proposition as my suggestion unless you clear the bill at the end of the month. If you do then there is no problem except choice of what you spend your money on.

Can I make just one plea for this meeting. Can we come with a few positive solutions to whatever problems we percieve there to be. To sit through another whinging meeting is of no benefit to any of us.

Cheers

Terry Collier 8)
From Sunny Portugal

Hi Paul

I will try very very hard to make it.

Terry Collier

Hi

No pun was intended I was actually being serious. To both of you -- I agree that the question of keeping on racing can involve many factors. What I am trying to do is suggest a possible answer to one of them. If we split the problem down to the small bits we might find the answers. So far the discussion just keeps getting too involved and convulated.  I agree the scheme must involve certain safeguards -- cancellation. However, when I see all of the concerns then I can find the answers.

I accept that the Club cannot do anything about certain personal situations but others can be handled. I do feel that unless we discuss the situation in a controlled way we will just go back to tinkering and satisfy some and annoy others. Basically my feeling is that we want to race, preferably as fast as we can, and that the Club should be organised in such a way that we can do this in as simple and economic way as possible.

I still await comments with interest

Terry Collier :oops:

Hi All
We have had innumerable discussions regarding aspects of the operation of the 2CV racing season. These have varied from Formats, Advertising, extending interest post 24 hours etc. However, underlying everything is the question of finance -- ranging from the cost of entries, cost of travel to the cost of repairs. Included in finance is the relationship with BARC, covering Grid sizes and selection of tracks.

Most of the problem with the cost of racing is not that it is just expensive but that this cost appears in a relatively short period of time, especially when people with families have other pressures such as holidays etc.

It would be possible for the Club to monitor a scheme, financed by an external agency, whereby the costs, at least of entries, could be spread over ten months of the year.

To give an idea the following is an example:
Cost of entries ------ Monthly repayment
1300 -------------------- 137.80
1600 -------------------- 169.60

There are several benefits to this scheme.
Firstly we and BARC would know the Grid sizes in advance.
Secondly payment would be made to BARC early gaining whatever discounts apply. This might reduce the overall cost.
But the big benefit would be to racers.
For example, starting the scheme in January or February would mean that
the monthly outlay would not be such a big shock. One would even be paying for race meetings after the event rather than before.

There are more details which I have considered but am not going into here yet. These include what if someone has to cancel a planned attendance, defaults on repayment, the benefit to the club. First it is necessary to discover whether this is considered to be a way forward in solving the underlying problem.

I await your comments with interest.
Terry Collier :roll:

Hi

Everyone can be relieved that I will be away from my computor for the next week so will not be able to do any more posts.

This thing about standard engines is a bit like the Holy Grail. The question is so simple but the answer is very complex. I have spent time with series that do this and still have variations in performance. Even my engines which have been built to the same spec vary in output by as much as 3 HP.

Where does the standardisation start and begin? Is the whole engine standard up to and including the carb? Who will be the supplier/s? How will we manage the cost? Has anyone thought that we will need to have a minimum of 60 engines per year to include the 24 hours.

Just thinking if one starts with a standard donor engine, then upgrades the various parts including heads, cams and cranks plus others, then a finished engine would cost about £1500. So for the season the cost would be £3000 per car. All repairs would have to be done by the supplier as the engine could not be unsealed. Just mechanical failure would just mean a rebuild, around £500, the parts would be covered on insurance. A serious fault, such as a valve bounce, would probably mean a complete rebuild and would cost the same as a new engine. At the end of a season the whole engine would need to be sent back for overhaul and a few parts replacing. Probably this would cost £1000.

So the concept seems great in principle but has serious problems in practise. Depending upon the supplier the variance between engines would be small or large -- and you would not know. The cost will expand the known budget by at least £3000 per car. All work, apart from cleaning the outside, must be done by the supplier, which has a distribution cost. Overall the concept does not solve problems, it just creates new ones.

Regards

Terry

Hi

Just one thing on Budget racers. The truth is that this series is cheap compared to other series. This is a point I have always made to interested parties. My total development budget for producing a winning 2CV over three years was far less than it would cost to do a single season in Caterhams or anything else. The actual racing costs, as has been said, is much of a muchness. I just had 2CV racing as my hobby rather than Golf and was lucky enough to be able to afford it.

Getting a 2CV to go fast on the track is not just the engine -- although it helps. I have put the same engine with the same driver in different cars and achieved a 2 second lap time difference. To deal with the rest of the car does not take money it takes both time and thought. The engine will lose power between the flywheel and the wheel. Why? What is taking up power? Can I release this power? Just look in the Haynes Manual at the parts that make up the drive chain and think how you can make it lighter and more efficient. You can get up to more than 30% more power delivered to the wheel following this route and buy little more than different lubrication. Setting corner weights and ride heights costs nothing but can increase your lap times. It might be worth thinking as you go round the track -- Not what is my car not doing for me But what have I done for the car! Time spent with a good reference book, being analytical and slightly obsessive produces faster lap times

I believe that we must try to keep costs down to a level that new racers can think of it as an impulse buy. It's not serious money so worth a try. If someone is willing to pay £5000 for the slowest Silverstone 24 hour car then to him a racing 2CV is not serious money. The driving experience is more exciting and dramatic than anyone else offers for a fraction of the cost.

Regards

Terry

Trevor is right. The 2CV engine and car is very retro and simple to play around with. All I would suggest is that a Haynes Manual is a vital bit of Kit.

Re the Endurance races. it is one of the mysteries of life. How do 5 cars, which have been as close as can be, go into the pits and then split up as all are suffering from BO?

The Driver change is the key. Most Enduros are won in this operation. It is simple really. If one car is slower on lap time by 0.5secs per lap but can gain 7 secs on the change, then it will take the faster car 14 laps to catch up all being even. However, as Drivers etc are not equal then the pit stop has a greater effect. I wonder how many Teams practise this? How many have timed the competition in order to set a target? How about two odd things. Put the larger Driver in first. It is quicker to tighten straps than loosen them. Have someone on the passenger side to manage the straps there. The exiting driver manages those straps. These would significantly speed up the change. The rest is up to the driver's agility. In my case this takes up to the Chequered Flag.

These things are not rocket science. Just professional analysis and practise.

Regards

Terry

At last someone has the audacity to put the truth in print. Thanks Andrew.

Cost has been always a bugbear with any discussions about the future of the Club. Yes it is true -- Motor Racing is an expensive hobby!! Team Collier Racing was accused of throwing money at a problem, with our use of Practise Days and Rolling Roads, ignoring Team Tee Shirts! However, my running budget for car development was less than it would have cost me to join a Golf Club and play once a week.

Compared to other series we do have a slight cost advantage. True the ancillary costs as Andrew outlined are the same, however, spares are nowhere as expensive. Scrap Yards and Breakers can provide most of the bits and pieces one needs. Thanks to Citroen over engineering the 2CV the components have a longer life than the total vehicle -- except for valve springs!! The other thing is that the 2CV is low tech. This means that the mechanics can really work on the car without the bother of car management systems. Even I taught myself the principles of the engine. I wonder how many of us have talked to mechanics in Garages to see if they are interested enough in being involved with a racing car?

So we have a series that involves a car that can be kept running with comparatively low expenditure. On the Track the performance, in terms of roadholding, means overtaking options are higher and driving lines round corners are many. this gives rise to more exciting and fulfilling driving experience.

The "normal" 2Cv race splits into three main groups, the front runners, the middle section and the third part. However, this is only really transparent with big grids. With small ones there are not enough cars to form the interesting groups.

We have one race that can attract large grids that is the 24 hour race. This race, if it is managed well by the Car owners, is a very low cost event. For example, if three drives are sold off at a £1000, then the initial budget is £3000.

Against this we should offset Race entry at £2500, Petrol at £200, Tyres at £100, Catering at £100. Other costs such as spare parts, engines etc are amortized across several races not just one. So the net outlay to the car owner is down to transport plus a bit for luck. If two car owners decide to share a car then by leasing out the other car the financial picture becomes even better.

So cost is not the big issue. If we examined my concept of a three 24 Hour Series we have a situation where your normal racing budget will be increased by profit made per race. For instance Spa and Pembrey would probably be only £2000 per race entry.

To race in the only competitor on an arrive and drive basis costs over £4000. To sell a three race series including Spa for £4000 on the same basis is not a difficult thing, this would increase the car preparation budget. This would guarantee a busy track which will increase the driving experience, except for Spa where driving the track alone would be a blast.

The Market is there, the 24 Hour concept is a draw the only question is whether we can keep enough of these newly experienced drivers to maintain a traditional season of three or four other races?

Always in Marketing think what do the potential Customers want from my type of Product? How can my product give it to them? How do I tell them that they can get it from my product? Answer these questions and you can see the foundation for the concept.

Cheers

Terry Collier

Hi

I am sending you an Excel Worksheet seperately that might help. You do not mention the symptoms so I am assuming the cause. I think that you are not matching the gear ratios to the designed power output of the engine. If your gear changes slip out of the power band then you will hesitate then pick up as you hopefully get into power. This is the biggest problem with the 2CV engine and this gearbox.

You have to design an engine which will give you a high HP but which lasts over a range from 4000 to 7000. This is not easy but if you only have a 10% drop across this range then the car will perform. The tendency of this engine is to meet walls. So the power will halve in 500 rpm ie from 6500 to 7000. The skill in the design is to spread these walls apart as far as you can. This is difficult.

Most of the drivers will recognise the scenario where holding 3rd gives you no more speed but changing to 4th is like braking. Does mess you up on corners.

If anyone in the Club wants these calculations send me an E-Mail and I will forward it to you. It does not seem to be the thing to put into a Post.

Regards

Terry

Hi

I appreciate the comments so far BUT

Hearsay or historic comments do not apply to today's situation. For example the refuelling situation at Spa can be overcome with a degree of reasonable negotiation. However, we will not change our method as it will involve too much cost. But we will be bringing 30 cars at £2000 to the table. £60000 carries a lot of bargaining rights especially to an organisation which is struggling to fund this event on an ongoing basis. It is even possible that running a much more "standard" 2CV might attract more Continental Drivers to compete.

My basic suggestion was for an operating group to be formed to examine the viability of doing this. This should be a properly run project with a series of progress reports for members to consider and agree before moving on. Without going into the full list of considerations they must include budgetary concerns (entry fees, estimated repair costs, travel etc) Club Organisation handling the discovery and management of spare drivers (as per Snetterton), Sponsorship, and Promotion. In addition we should consider the position of the Scots and Irish who have been such a valuable component of 2CV racing.

Re the comment about being radical I would suggest that this suggestion is radical as it fundamentally changes how we compete. Everything else I have seen so far is merely changing details but staying with any combination of 1/2, 1, or 2hour races plus a 24 one. What do we know? This is not seemingly attractive even for experienced racers to go the extra mile, so attracting new ones must be a distinct question mark.

All I am interested in is whether the membership think the concept is worthwhile following up or not.

Fundamentally we live in a competitive age but so what? I believe a three 24 hour race series is a sellable idea. Add into this the nature of the driving experience, the relative low cost (about £4000 or less for three 24 hour races including the "magic" of Spa, for arrive and drive people) and the challenge of driving the 2CV and gaining entrants is not the biggest problem.

I have spent my working life determining and running Strategic Marketing Projects, mostly successfully! I do not see this as a major challenge, it does not compare to handling the 24th antibiotic which only deals with sore throats and making it the number one in Europe!

I believe in 2CV racing, I think that it offers drivers more in the way of learning how to handle a racing car, how to develop racing tactics and the understanding of how a race team must work to be successful than any other series available. Nowhere else can you learn and implement everything to do with a racing car, from engine through the drive train to suspension and set up. This is my experience who with a couple of manuals, a socket set and a Dremmel managed to do OK. So I did have the help of a great mechanicing crew and a driver who wanted to develop as much as I did.

So I wait to hear for your like or dislike views.

Terry Collier