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Then we want to know why. Why not hire one? And if you want to enter the 2CV 24hr race in something other than a 2CV race then sorry if it sounds harsh, but if it means diluting the 2CV grids and marginalising the people who do actually want to race a 2CV and not be overlooked in the results when the timesheets have C1s taking the top places, then maybe you're not welcome.

lol why do series forums always attract such keyboard warriors. Not being welcome is fine by me, but maybe it's that kind of attitude that has caused your grids for the 24hr races to dwindle. Was it 16 cars at Anglesey and 4 at Spa this year.

OK, so maybe my words were a little harsh, but indicate the depth of feeling. And you would have seen me around the garage even if I didn't speak to you, and I like to think I'm generally fairly friendly. The "you" wasn't necessarily aimed at you personally. This year's Anglesey race had unique factors which didn't help grid sizes. Circuit choice, date, late organisation and particularly unfavourable start and finish times put a lot of people off. You can't really scoff at 4 cars at Spa given that it's not part of the championship and takes a lot more time, money and effort to get to than our own race.

C1's if you are kind enough to allow them to race in the 24hr's next year, will probably attract triple the entries of the 602 at the rate it's growing, which will of course help subsidise your racing.

Not disputing that, but you must see that it runs the risk of the 602 then becoming the non-dominant category which will do the attractiveness of racing one no future good whatsoever.

The sprint series does well enough, but you need to look at why only a handful of die hards choose to do the endurance events, i bet most of it is down to cost. Spa was my first experience of the 2CV Racing club and everyone was so friendly, helpful and open to all types of racing, i obviously didn't meet yourself.

As I said above, it's not just cost that's the factor, which you of course can't know if you haven't been involved before. And I'm happy that you got a taste of why people DO love 2CV racing - because people are so friendly and welcoming. And we want that to continue.

This is how I see it;
- People want to race for 24hrs.
- People want to race cheaply, and they want a car that pretty much runs itself.
- There are very few 24hr races available worldwide, let alone in the UK.
- Those 24hr races that are available, eg Britcar, are very much more expensive and for generally speaking fairly high-tech machinery with associated complications and costs.

So if you want to race in the Citroen 2CV 24hr race, it would be nice if you supported the organising club by actually racing a 2CV. If there are sufficient numbers wanting to race cheap modern road cars then, if we can organise a 24hr race for our relatively small numbers of quirky old cars, surely there's scope for a separate race for modern machinery instead of piggy-backing on ours and potentially swamping it.

Hi Maisie,

Sorry if you felt my responce was effectively telling you to abndon all hope, and that the 2cv was doomed to become every more expensive. Thats not what I intended.

Put simply I want to find the cheapest 24hr series with the best atmosphere that I can enter a modern reliable car (I'd like to think my prep is pretty decent) and that lets us enjoy track time with similar paced cars without having to constant worry about stuff like jetting when we've got enough to learn as it is. If the cars are also easy to work on when stuff goes fruit shaped - then that would be perfect.

To me, that's what the C1s are, not a replacement for 2CVs but simply a feeder series into 24hr 'full size' racing for teams like mine that have outgrown other elements of the sport. If we get to share the operating costs event surely that makes your annual budget a bit easier too.

Yes, but the issue seems to be lots of people want to have a nice easy 24hr race, which I can see the attraction of. The problem is that 24hr races are a) rare, b) generally extremely expensive. And people have found our race and our championship and want to piggy back on it. The issue with that is that while sharing the costs is all well and good there's a very real threat that having 15 2CVs and suddenly 25 C1s kills off what we've been happily, and successfully, doing for over 25 years.

Just to address the "rising costs of 2CV racing bit":

I think my main point is that people enter a 2CV 24 HOUR race to race A 2CV. For 24 HOURS. They don't want to go and buy something modern because it's cheaper, or easier. It's not a 2CV for a start!

I want to do another 24hr race and i'd enter the 2CV race to race a C1.  I wouldn't buy a 2CV to do it in.

Then we want to know why. Why not hire one? And if you want to enter the 2CV 24hr race in something other than a 2CV race then sorry if it sounds harsh, but if it means diluting the 2CV grids and marginalising the people who do actually want to race a 2CV and not be overlooked in the results when the timesheets have C1s taking the top places, then maybe you're not welcome.

[2CVs]

To add to the above essay (sorry!), look at the Minis. The Mighty Mini championship is very much like ours. People choose to race Minis because they want to race a Mini. They want close, relatively cheap racing, but I dare say second hand Minis aren't getting any cheaper although there are plenty of specialist suppliers out there and parts are still OK to come by. If anything their bodywork will be more expensive because they are more a one-piece shell with welded on parts and not as dismantlable as a 2CV. Engines are similarly easy to work on if you have a bit of practical ability, but there are also the likes of Slark who are a go-to builder if you can't do it yourself. And a Slark engine won't be cheap. Neither Mini nor 2CV engine builders run as a charity. Whatever form of motorsport you take part in, it's just what you have to accept.

They don't have the associated difficulties of trying to run a 24hr race as part of their championship and so don't have the unique issues that we do in terms of grid numbers (which haven't actually been that bad for the sprint series). There are far more issues such as time of year (with people having holidays booked), track location, finding enough team members etc that stop cars coming out and these are the issues we need to address in order to augment rather than replace our grid of 2CVs.

Just to address the "rising costs of 2CV racing bit":

- Our race car cost £1000. It involved a trip to Ireland to collect and a lot of panel work and fettling to fix crash damage, borrow shocks (it came with 3) and get some Belgian arms made up but was out racing competitively at Oulton Park 13 days later. Yes, there are expensive race cars for sale (but don't tell me you can buy race cars for many other series for less than a couple of grand) but with a bit of research there are plenty out there that could be got back on track as projects with very little outlay in terms of time or money.
- We have a road car (as yet untouched) which cost £200. We were buying some stuff from a chap from Ebay and since he was emigrating and needed to get rid of everything he took a very low offer for the whole car sitting in his driveway. So there are some out there which aren't expensive to use as donors for shell, engine, suspension etc or even to build into a race car.
- Engines: somewhat specialised, and yes things like getting the jetting right can be a pain, especially on a long circuit with varying characteristics and wildly changing temperatures. But that's what you get with old non-electronic tech. It's always been part of the challenge of getting a 2CV to run right. But you can learn to build and work on them yourselves and from my experience people who build engines aren't stingy with offering help and advice. You don't need to spend thousands on building or buying an engine.

"we are also seriously talking about building our own cars for next time and a few C1's would work out at a max of 9k" - see above. Could buy 9 Blueberry Muffins for that!
"An engine rebuild was about £500 and they are designed to do a lot of mileage for that and not have to be rebuilt after every 24hr race. That makes them a lot cheaper to build and run than a 602 and more reliable too."
Engine rebuild can easily be less than that and even factoring in taking a second hand engine and buying new pistons, rings, barrels and a club cam you're probably not looking at much more. And I don't see how an engine service for a C1 is that much different to checking over your 2CV engine if you've been kind to it and giving that some service items after a 24hr race. For every "we went through 4 engines" there are multiple examples of teams who've run a faultless race, engine-wise.

"aside from the scruiteneering issues / accident damage they suffered an engine failure and a head gasket failure...... that was it"
Yes, but that "it" takes HOURS out of your track time and instantly renders any chance of a competitive finish out of the question. Rosie Racing did the whole race on one engine and even with a sizeable crash towards the end the car finished first of the UK spec 2CVs. Even with an engine failure it's still possible to win a 24hr race in a 2CV.

I think my main point is that people enter a 2CV 24 HOUR race to race A 2CV. For 24 HOURS. They don't want to go and buy something modern because it's cheaper, or easier. It's not a 2CV for a start!
It's accepted that you're going to have to put some time and money into building a car up (but there is no motorsport that is cheap and any racing car needs some good prep). If you just go and buy some knackered scrap modern car is almost smacks of cheating, that you want to do it the easy way. Endurance motorsport SHOULDN'T be "easy". There should be some challenge involved. That's what makes it to satisfying when you do well, even if it takes years of trying before you get the perfect combination of prep, performance and luck. You accept that there may be bodywork damage, or suspension issues, or even an engine failure, but you also know that there is almost nothing that will actually take you out of the race for good.
I've been spares coordinator for a classic car owners club for 15 years and believe me, we would have killed to have the number of bespoke suppliers that 2CVs or even the likes of Minis have. You can buy pretty much everything off the shelf and honestly, the parts aren't that expensive.

It irks me that people keep peddling the "2CVs are expensive, unreliable and hard to source parts for" line. THEY ARE NOT. Or at least they don't have to be. There will always be people who are willing and able to throw stupid amounts of money at any series to gain an advantage. But equally there is plenty of scope for someone with a little resourcefulness to compete perfectly well on a modest budget. I think instead of looking to the future and thinking "let's get rid of all this creaky old chod and go for a nice easy runabout instead" we should be looking at making a 2CV an attractive prospect and being a lot more open with information on costs, where to buy parts, how to work on the cars and encouraging new competitors to buy into the concept of racing our quirky-but-ideal-for-taking-anything-you-can-throw-at-them cars.

Replacing 2CVs IS NOT INEVITABLE. It SHOULD NOT BE INEVITABLE. I've lost count of the number of times I've said this: there are multiple places like Hot Hatch you can go and race a C1 (yes, I appreciate that that championship has a not-entirely-undeserved reputation for being expensive bumper cars). Or start your own. There is ONE. I repeat: ONE place you can race a 2CV. And there are plenty of people who DO want to race a 2CV and who do not exactly relish being told that their cars are rubbish and doomed to being phased out and seeing on the horizon what looks like a horde of people telling them it's time they stopped standing in the way of progress and let their championship die a dignified death.

One of the Mission Motorsport guys told me their C1 cost £600. Which is of course for a scrap road car. Add in cost for cage, service parts, suspension, brakes, exhaust, any remapping/rolling road PLUS another road car for spares and a trailer to bring it on and someone to transport it. And then you fail scrutineering on roll cage prep, finally finish that only to have an electric fire extinguisher go off ad THEN have something go wrong with the immobiliser which means that while, before qually, all 2CV and even Mini teams are relaxing and having a bite of breakfast you're running around like headless chickens with Haynes manuals, laptops and random bits of electronics to swap out, only just getting it started in time for qually... not an ideal basis for cheap, practical endurance racing! Heard the car then bouncing off the limiter at Eau Rouge so needing an engine swap a mere 2.something hours into the race wasn't surprising. Road engines aren't designed to do that.
I'm sure they're ok racing cars in their own right but the idea of our 24hr race is that it should be within the average joe's financial and practical reach, should have an element of challenge rather than buying a modern car which should be able to run continuously for 24hrs without too much abuse, should involve a mix of good prep and fast but mechanically sympathetic driving as well as a combination of a great crew who have the ability to make a difference to the race outcome as well as a generous slice of luck.
So no, I don't think C1s should have a place in 2CV racing. I have no issues with Minis - similar costs, similar classic car appeal, similar tech and a similar mindset from guys who appreciate the value of racing cleanly and fairly and not giving yourself something expensive to fix. I don't think throwing the sums of money needed for a C1 only to potentially waste track time and money when something complicated fails is a sensible way to go endurance racing, especially when it risks diluting or devaluing the excellent, friendly, practical, affordable and FUN series we know, love and cherish.

So now the race is done and dusted, what do I think of the C1? OK, yes, it proved very reliable. But why wouldn't it be? It's a modern car. My Fiat 500 has done 45,000 miles since I've had it and I'm sure I've done a lot more than 24hrs in it. OK, I might not be jumping kerbs or braking and accelerating so hard, but I'm hardly Miss Daisy and I'd be very disappointed if it hadn't covered that distance without using more than a couple of sets of brakes and tyres, fuel and the occasional bulb. The manufacturer has done all the hard work of engineering it for me.
The C1 is a perfectly capable car, but sadly lacking in personality (as are most modern cars which have regressed to an aerodynamic norm of shape). As I've said earlier, people do this not just for the endurance race aspect, but because they love the 2CV. At leasy the Euros share some styling cues and the Minis have that classic appeal.
As Trevor said, there are plenty of places you could go to race a C1. There is ONE place where you can race a 2CV. If the C1 is allowed to proliferate and dilute and devalue the 2CV racing, then there will be NOWHERE we can race our cars.
After all, this is an ENDURANCE race. We all accept that maybe a driver will buzz an engine, or a bearing might go or something else. It's getting that unique mix of prep, driving skill, reliability, economy and LUCK right to win the race that gets the satisfaction. It's the feeling of overcoming adversity, when everything comes together. Where's the challenge in buying something modern, throwing a few basic mods at it (and believe me if there were more racing regularly those mods would be just as trick as anything anyone's ever tried on 2CVs, it would still be the person with the deepest pocket buying the trickest bits or the craftiest brains coming up with something no-one's tried before).
So please let's make very, very sure we canvas the opinion of EVERYONE in this club, listen to the answers and not rush into something that will potentially kill off one of the best championships out there.

Edit to add: seems to be from today's Motorsport News (17th August) from the header on the Anglesey Circuit original post.

I would like to express my dismay at what seems to me to be an ill-thought out, incredibly premature/presumptive and potentially extremely damaging press release (see attached).

"The C1 has been introduced as a trial for this weekend's event at Anglesey as a cheaper alternative to thje ageing and increasingly rare 2CV machines" (my italics)

1) I can fully understand why a couple of C1s were mooted as a quick boost to numbers for the 24hr race when entries were looking pretty dire earlier in the year, but AN ALTERNATIVE?? News to me... and probably news to 99.9% of the rest of the (may I remind you) CLASSIC 2CV RACING CLUB (The clue is in the title!). Ageing they may be, but no more so than an equivalent Mini. Getting rarer and more expensive to buy, sure, but there are literally dozens of unused racing cars sitting in garages and we need to know why and to encourage them out so that rarity is not a factor.

"..The problem is racing 2CVs is quite an expenswive business..."

Is it?? Chris and I manage on a shoestring budget around a not-inconsiderable mortgage and other outgoings. We were lucky to find out car relatively cheaply, but it needed some work. No-one's forcing you to hire a Pete Sparrow to drive, or to get a specialist restoration company to do your bodywork, or pay an engine builder to put a dozen engines together and rolling road them. With a bit of mechanical know-how, a willingness to get stuck in and learn and some canny shopping around, a 2CV is, again, no more difficult or expensive to maintain than the equivalent racing Mini.

".. they are easier to police..." Don't know about that since there aren't any regulations for C1s. BUT I do know that the 2CV racing club regs could be a lot clearer (although this has improved of late) and as for policing, the lack thereof should have been noted and rectified a very long time ago. This is being worked on by the tech committee, but it's been lax for an awfully long time. It doesn't have to be difficult, we just need to make sure someone actually DOES it, has the power to enforce their findings and that the membership are encouraged to understand and conform to the regs.

"... they will be cheaper to run too..." How cheap? Who's running them? What resources do they have? Are they tinkering in their own garages or farming the work out to the nearest engine tuner? It's not black and white. Our car gets a quick checkoever between races, a fill-up of fuel, maybe a tyre if needed between races then it's ready to hit the track again. What's so expensive about that?? It's what you make it.

"We will try to maintain at least 50 per cent 2CVs" Is this an official club line? If so, since when? To me it smacks of "We acknowledge the 2CV is dying on its bum and we've all but given up, but will try to keep a few knocking about for the die-hards while we go and play with our easy new shiny things". This statement is effectively killing off the 2CV 24hr race as a race FOR 2CVs without a chance to put a year's effort, increased publicity and communication into building the race back up again. If you give the impression that the 2CV is slowly dying off, you run the risk of it becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. No-one's going to want to join if they think they're going to be spending serious amounts of cash to join a dying championship.

We have a GREAT racing club, for GREAT cars, which DO NOT need to be expensive or difficult to run if you're willing to put in a bit of time and effort. The whole unique selling point of the CLASSIC 2CV RACING CLUB is... THE CITROEN 2CV. The cars look unlike anything else. They are built unlike anything else. They are THE best car for a 24hr race because of their reliability and repairability (imagine half a grid of C1s have an engine issue or suspension damage in the first hour of a race - the track would be virtually empty for hours!).

Let's all be POSITIVE for a change and ALL put the effort to keeping the 2CV RACING CLUB RACING 2CVs.
To the committee: don't forget the club's title and ethos. Involve and consult the membership and don't ride rough-shod over it for your own aims. Make timely decisions and communicate so that people have time to make plans early. Don't just focus on £££, think of the bigger picture (sacrificing the chance to get together which is so much a part of the 24hr for the chance to save a bit of cash being a prime example).
To the members: support the club. Bring those old cars out. Show up to races. If you don't like where the club is going, join the board or speak up. Put your memberships and race entries in early. Let's make this a collaborative, smooth-running club and keep it going in a positive upwards direction. A few months of serious effort to promote the club and race have paid dividends. Don't write the whole thing off without giving the momentum a chance to continue.

We're far from dead and buried but if people keep giving out the impression that we're doomed, we soon will be!

It might be at the end of the world for some, but not for others (ourselves included). On the flipside, some of you have been lucky enough to have the race practically on the doorstep for a decade and are now feeling exactly what the rest of us have done all that time ... but we still considered the event worth making the effort for. The roads to Anglesey are probably no worse than getting stuck in Elveden for the 8th time on the way to Snet. At least it's dual carriageway and upwards most of the way.

I don't think Anglesey has the same atmosphere as Snetterton. One of my major gripes is that the small doors in the garage rollers mean that it's easy to close the big door and effectively shut the garage off from the rest of the paddock. I always loved being able to walk the fire lane at Snetterton, see into the garages (even if it was blowing a gale with sideways rain, which is the downside...) and share a smile or a wave with people inside. And when you're on catering etc duty in the awnings, it's nice to be able to see how the guys in the garage are doing.

I really don't like the idea of the 9am finish. The post-race social has always been a big part of the event and a chance for an end-of-season get-together. I can see the attraction to the circuit to run another event on the Sunday to keep costs down (although I do wonder how much is warranted economically and how much is a little greedy) and to non-racers to get home at a reasonable time on Sunday afternoon/evening. A return to the days when there used to be a meeting on the Saturday at Snet before the race could be a compromise. I know that the other racers on the Saturday were intrigued by our racing and those that stayed over on the Saturday night enjoyed it. It's a great opportunity to showcase the club and the 24hr race. If we can't do that, I think the club needs to seriously look at subsidising racing even if just for one year to get numbers back up as things are looking pretty bad at the moment :(

Having said that.... if we have to finish at 9am, how about a beach BBQ if the weather's good enough??

Amend the last option to "Will there be alcohol? Then I'm happy" and add "**** off, it's only January and I haven't recovered from the last one yet" ;)

Good idea. 'tis done :)

It shows as completely full on the website and there have never been single rooms showing as available, only double, twin or suite.

Maisie.
You need to get on here more mate.

I'm always on here, lurking. Just don't often feel like sticking my neck out :)

Well, for a start even if 2CVs had raced in period at Goodwood I think a cursory glance at our after-race celebrations would see us instantly dismissed as "undesirable riff-raff" and "a potential threat to the furnishings".

But if you don't think 2CV racing is "budget".... what is?? I challenge you to find a series with comparable costs either for a complete car, or for parts/development, or for race entries.

If you can manage to do that, does the car half anywhere near as much character? Is it as much fun to drive? Is the paddock atmosphere as good as ours? Can you repair pretty much anything with minimal expense or effort and do a lot of it yourself? Is the racing as close?

As an example, I found the Hyundai Coupe Cup which advertises in Autosport.

Their website states:

Currently you are able to buy an 'off the shelf' newly-built race car for as little as £3995 from one of our Cup approved builders or, if you fancy building one yourself, the basic control parts come to under £1800. These consist of the series marked Safety Devices roll cage, AVO coil-over suspension Pipercross filtration and EBC Brakes. When you take into account that decent Coupe's can be picked up off eBay for less than £500, it makes the Coupe Cup possibly the cheapest way to get into motorsport in the UK.

and...

Cost controlled, competitive racing is the key to the Hyundai Coupe Cup which is why the cars run reasonably close to road specification with MSA safety equipment and limited tuning to both the chassis and engine. You could, if you wanted still MOT, tax, insure and use your Coupe as a 'daily driver' if you wanted.

So not a million miles away from 2CVRC in philosophy or price.

In their first race at Rockingham they had 10 cars separated by 16 seconds in qually.
At Brands Hatch it was 11 cars separated by 4 seconds.

The race results don't give detailed times (although I'm sure they're on MST) but that's half the numbers of a good 2CV grid and a much bigger spread of times. And how long do tyres last? How much do they cost to replace? What happens if you have a biff on a corner? You'd need some pretty decent bodywork skills or to pay someone to put it right because they're likely not bolt-on panels. And they don't have the virtually unique cachet of a 24 hour race.

So I would still argue that even if there's actually no such thing as BUDGET motorsport, this is about as close as it gets.

I can't say I've read every post in detail and I've probably forgotten most of those that I have, but...

... this has always been the case. Back when Chris was racing Mighty Minis there were always some people with that bit of extra cash to throw at getting the best blueprinted engines, doing test days etc. In any one-make series a good engine is going to be a big performance differentiator. So if being at the front with a chance of winning is important to you, you need to accept that unless you have the time and knowledge to build a competitive engine yourself, you're going to need a bit of cash to enlist someone else's help to make up the shortfall. And since it's a seller's market and you're effectively captive, the people with the time and expertise have the right to set their prices to whatever someone else is willing to pay, especially if it's their main or only source of income.

It doesn't matter what technology is used, what engine size, what sort of carb or injection system etc. There will always be the people who are better at getting them running and who will end up being the ones who build race-winning engines. If you're not one of those people and can't or won't spend the cash to go to them, you need to accept that you might not be running at the front and instead take pleasure in being in a close and competitive championship where you can have a good, hard and fair fight with someone wherever in the pack you are and concentrate on getting your car's handling right and your driving skills improved so you can be in with the best chance to take advantage when someone's £3k overstressed and over-developed engine goes bang ;)