How do we calm things down a little?

[Scooterman]

Absolutely nothing to do with my own recent experiences, but is it about time the drivers got together and had a positive discussion about driving standards? I'm not talking about a bitching session about who did what and so on, more of gentlemanly and ladylike discussion about how to keep things exciting without going over the top.

We were gathered together in a room at Pembrey, I think the idea was to get us all to think a bit more and see a little less red mist. As far as I can see, that conversation had little or no effect. There were a number of incidents and near misses at Pembrey, some of which made me wince watching them. Were there any penalties for causing accidents? Is it more important to punish people for straying over lines and damaging the grass? Is the white line rule causing more contact?

I'm not looking at starting world war 2cv. We don't have the fastest machines in the world but it doesn't mean we are immune to serious injuries. A touch at a slow hairpin is not really what I'm talking about, cars hitting each other at over 70mph is more my concern.

[Trevor Williams]

As it seems most people run with cameras, mandate the use of them, allow the Clerk to review all footage of incidents, and accept the penalties applied!!

There are a few incidents from Pembrey, Croft and Oulton that I have watched where the guilty party would have been excluded from the race as a minimum, and on at least one occasion been excluded from the event. The result of which would have been one driver having 10 points on their licence, which would leave them one written reprimand away from losing their licence for three months......

Trevor

[Simon Crook]

I agree with what you are saying Trevor (as always  ;D) I am sure that you know the answer to this one, should you want to use the camera footage do you first have to sign one of those forms saying that you have a camera on board (I can safely say that I have never signed one  ::)) otherwise will it be excepted as evidence?

[RLambert]

Cameras help where a driver has lodged a complaint against another but it needs the complaint to be made before anything will be done.

Pembrey is a bit like Brands, where the lap times are all very close and the track narrow so when an accident does happen other cars get involved.

One of the challenges of 2CV racing is to not lose any momentum and the tendency is to keep your foot in even if things are going wobbly up ahead, most of the time it's ok but when it does all go wrong contact is likely and I think this was the reason for the race 2 qualifying shunt with no one wanting to give an inch.

I don't believe the driving standards are a problem in our championship it's just a certain amount of close contact driving is part of the way we do things and when it goes wrong we get bent panels....
 

[Chris Yates]

do you first have to sign one of those forms saying that you have a camera on board

Not anymore. Not for about 5 years or so. When I did a sprint race earlier this year I called up MSV and asked about forms, and they didn't know!

Anyway, regards contact - there are a few different issues at work here. There's "deliberate contact" - i.e. knowingly giving someone a shove because they slighted you in some way (or some other excuse), and then there's "accidental contact".

By all means we should be cracking down on deliberate contact, but I don't think I saw too much of that at Pembrey. I saw a lot of contact where someone got a bit sideways or out of control in front (or behind!), and someone else couldn't avoid them.. I'm not sure giving out penalties for that sort of thing is going to do much good! Sometimes accidents happen on the race track.

[Scooterman]

I did witness a car overtaking on the grass and deliberate contact. There was definitely some "Get out of my way or I'll ram you out of the way" I'm not referring to incidents I was involved in, just ones I saw. There was some brilliant driving and clean racing -that should be applauded and promoted.:-)

Accidents will always happen, that's just a racing given.

Poor driving is something that should be actively discouraged by the penalty system until a driver raises his or her standards. I include myself in that. When I mess up, I expect at the least an ear bashing from the clerk of the course and a polite word from the club driving standards rep. I have made mistakes that deserved a telling off, I've never had one though.

[gadget]

I think it fair to say that we had the worst of this conversation looking at our no24 car after 2nd qualifying.
I think there are a couple of issues here and it is going to be difficult to deal with them.

over the last 15 years we have had the driving standards issue crop up numerous times. this is why we then employed a drivers rep, to have words with the guilty party and say they would be watched next race. that idea didn't work too well when sometimes the worst offender was the drivers rep!
I feel that it doesn't matter how much you tell someone that their driving standard is below par and they are being watched. if they are of that nature and drive as if their life depended on it and someone else is in their way,they will cause damage. I had various names given to me last weekend as being guilty of causing incidents. they will all obviously know who they are and probably deny it.   
I think it's fair to say that everyone thinks they are a really good racing driver,although in reality not that many are. there does seem to be a few common denominators as well over the years. we also have the odd few who just seem to run out of talent once in a while.
I would still challenge someone to come up with a satisfactory solution, but still leave us with good close racing. I think in some ways we have to accept that it's a hazard of the job.

on a similar subject.
we have seen mr fox get a bollocking at croft, then at pembrey he caused the incident that tom perry collected. that does lead me to wonder if there is a common denominator? but looking at mike fox's car after, I noticed the condition of his front tyres. these were absolutely bald for the third of the tyre on the inside.now we know his car is quick, it was on the front row for both races. well actually it wasn't! but does it get a bit loose in the corners? I think so.
I am going to invite discussion on the following subject in readiness for the proposals for the agm. I think mike fox's car and maybe others are running too much negative camber and that we should restrict the amount of degrees cars can run. most cars are running 2-5 or maybe 6 degrees.
ithink mikes would be nearer 10/12 degrees, meaning he has little tyre actually on the track. this would also be something that would be easy to check.
finally, on the subject of the white lines. what a load of bollocks. I thought we were racing, not on a fecking scalectrics track!
Gadget

[Lien93]

I basically agree with Wayne. If we are going to race as close as we do with adrenalin pumping and 'keeping your foot in situations' occurring, there are bound to be incidents (especially now we have to keep it on the black stuff too!) It's what makes it exciting for us, the spectators and the Clerk of the Course at Pembrey (he loved the 2 hr race, he said neither him nor the marshals had not watched a race as good as that for years)
I support the idea of restricting the camber angle to no more than 6 degrees from a safety point of view. The cars, amazingly, are still getting faster and the contact patch on some cars has got smaller. I am sure it will help.

[Paul]

Interestingly Wayne i have had similar thoughts about camber.I thought 12 degrees on one axle would be easier to police as it allows for discrepancies in floor level.
As for bald tyres,i was led to believe there was canvas showing,i remember Elwyn checking tyre tread depth in the assembly area and sending drivers back to the paddock,maybe this should be a check the technical commitee should ask to be done.

[Scooterman]

As we have a number of drivers and highly knowledgable mechanics who often attend but are not directly working for a team, maybe they would be more suited to a driver advisory role and technical inspection? The problem being, if you're racing, or working for a particular team that weekend, you can be accused of bias. Or you are faced with a technical drama within your team and you don't have time to go around the paddock to chat with drivers, check cars etc. Whoever is in this role could liaise with the scrutineers at each circuit to brief them on specific items to look for, both on a safety and a technical compliance front.

Might just be my paranoia, but are we often overlooked because of the amusing appearance of our cars?

[Derek Coghill]

Regarding tread depth, as far as I can remember there isn't a measurement for it. There's a requirement that there be visible tread at the end of the race, I think.

[gadget]

don't think so derek

[Nick clarke]

I was told 1.6mm on 3/4 don't know if this is right last year at brands the
Scrutineer said my tyres were low and I should change them before I raced

[Nick clarke]

Rule says
5.13 Tyres:
5.13.1. Specifications
The only permitted size is, 135 X 15. Remoulds are prohibited.
All tyres shall have a tread depth of at least 1.00mm across 75% of the tread when the car is presented at pre-race scrutineering and in the forming up area before racing

[Alec Graham]

Same old 2cv problem. None of the comments above are new. The regs exist already, they aren't policed because nobody takes the racing series seriously.
What is the point in bringing in more regs when the existing ones are broadly ignored?