Fuel injection - lets make it even

[RLambert]

Can we investigate fitting fuel injection to the cars for 2016? I know it has been discussed before.

My main issue with the championship is the carb there are too many variables, if you do well or not pretty much comes down to if you've got the right carb set up.

The other issue is how easy it is for the carb to get blocked, as happenend to me in the first race at Brands.

It's frustrating after spending so much money it is all runined by a minute spec of crud! This shouldn't happen.

I realise that there will be a set up cost for inject but ultimately it will be cheaper in terms of setup time and rolling road cost and the we will have a level playing field in this area which should result in better closer racing, without certain cars streaking ahead or others langusihing at the back coughing and spluttering.

We might even get some recognition from the MSA for going 'green' as fuel injection should be cleaner.

What do we need to do to make it happen ??

[Louis]

As I understand it Kris has just purchased the bits to try single point injection and will be trying multipoint in the future. Once I've got another engine together I plan to try multipoint on the road.

I agree it's probably the best bit of progress we can make with a 2cv engine and I think there's something to be said for discussing ecu pools or controlled mapping.

You could put in a tech proposal for injection, with a club plus class in 2016 running injection and full club running injection in 17 to do some sort of phased intro? That'd be my view but I'm sure others will have a different view and won't hesitate to share.

[Matthew Hollis]

Or to avoid yet more expense, get rid of Webers and everybody return to running Solex......

Either way, as Louis suggests, any member can submit a technical proposal for the tech committee to investigate. Sounds like Kris and Louis are already investigating anyway!

[Chris Yates]

There is something called an "Ecotrons" EFI kit for 400cc to 800cc engines (http://www.ecotrons.com/products/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/), which has been fitted to a 2CV road car and replaced the Solex quite well apparently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRcd6JjKzVU) - this would be single point injection.

The good thing about the above solution is that you get everything you need as part of the kit - ECU, wiring, throttle body, sensors, etc.

My gut feeling is that anything multipoint would end up becoming a bit bespoke and people might have to come up with their own solutions, which would negate the point of looking at fuel injection in the first place!

The bad news is that the Ecotrons kit is about $699, or £477. I guess if we were buying in bulk that might come down a bit.

[KrisTovey]

I was building a multipoint system using BMW 1100 throttle bodies.   After seeing this is pretty clear my time would be better put into a SPI kit...   There is quite a alot of technical issues and rules that will need to be addressed in regards to the throttle body and Mapping though.  The kit that Chris posted looks a viable option but I'd personally like the throttle bodies to be controlled and the ECU/mapping to be free.



Edit..  After a quick discussion with Louis I'm going to carry on with the twin TB design to show at Cadwell because there some benefits, Mainly space on top of the engine for the swirl pot, Pump, ECU, ect. Yes it dose require a slight bit more work but could very easily be put together in kit form.   

[RLambert]

Sounds good Kris.

If I was going to define a set of requirements they would be;

1. There would be two kits, the engine components so you can have the same set up on several engines and the car components, fuel pump, wiring, ECU
2. Simple(ish) installation
3. Minimal components, doesn't hamper engine changes
4. Plug and play, no on-going ECU mapping needed, although the club should be allowed to introduce a new map
5. Reliability - all new components used if possible
6. ECUs can be swapped between cars - avoids cheating
7. Power increases not required, just a reliable 43.5 bhp

[Simon Crook]

Blimey the 2016 season is shaping up to be an expensive start up - Fuel injection - Hans Device, Hans Device Helmet, New seat if I want to race at Spa, New Belts blah blah, I agree I also had issues with fuel which was a right pain in the AR*E, Sh*t happens although along with 3 or 4 cars that had issues nearly 20 didn't - there are many variants of the Weber along the pit lane, I believe some are using the Short Circuit version, and like me a few are using the Club Spec supplied by the club and I have seen a couple of other ones too!

[RLambert]

Yes 2016 will be expensive! I need a helmet, HANS and seat too!

And yes there are several types of Weber, we have the club one which doesn't have the filter in the carb top which is probably where the crud is getting in. So we could go to the expense of buying the different carbs but then that is an expensive change in itself.

The other issue that this doesn't address is the carb jetting challenges we continually face.

I've emailed the Ecotrons crowd to see what they could do for us so lets not discount anything until we have some facts and figures.

Cheers

[Trevor Williams]

Small Bills, Big Thrills......... There goes the ethos of the club

[Paul]

I can understand the frustrations ,however we have always had carb issues fuel surge ,starvation around long corners,water etc. If we need to block off a hole in a carb top that seems infinitely cheaper than fuel injection,
However if we are to go down that route i would personally prefer as few non standard parts as possible and single point,that way you don't have twin cables/balance issues.I would also prefer to see ecu's being fixed and exchanged at meetings rather than free and open to the largest cheque book.

[nick nice toes]

Holy hell.
I'm sorry if this is out of order but motor sport is not a given that you finish a race.
I can see why people would like to go down the injection route but as Trevor pointed out are we not supposed to be a series will low bills.
I can see many people not entering unless different classes are acknowledged and points awarded accordingly.... where a privateer has as much right to a win in class as a factory run team
The carb I run on my car cost me about £10 off eBay. I have a brand new one that will not run for all the tea in China.
Just my views but hey ho I appreciate people's have their opinions. 

[nick nice toes]

And as for the close racing etc. I have just enjoyed the best 2 races of my 2cv life. I had a battle  ;D with many fellow racers from the lights out to the flag.
Okay in the 1st race I was quite a few seconds of the leader and the following 2, but I was beaten by 4 extremely talented and proven drivers. I'm not too sure the time that covered the group of cars I was involved with but I think around 1 second strong.
In the 2nd the gap to the leaders was a lot less.
I think that a certain degree of credit should be given to the driver !!!
Let's be straight here if the weber is soooo much better than the solex  how did mim racing finish 2nd at Donnington last time we raced there !!!!!! Maybe we should all be running the solex

Holy hell.
I'm sorry if this is out of order but motor sport is not a given that you finish a race.
I can see why people would like to go down the injection route but as Trevor pointed out are we not supposed to be a series will low bills.
I can see many people not entering unless different classes are acknowledged and points awarded accordingly.... where a privateer has as much right to a win in class as a factory run team
The carb I run on my car cost me about £10 off eBay. I have a brand new one that will not run for all the tea in China.
Just my views but hey ho I appreciate people's have their opinions. 

[nick nice toes]

Not too sure what has happened below as per quotes etc.
I think a bigger phone and drier fingers is in order

[Alec Graham]

My memory isn't good.
I remember the days when I was fast and Pete was good looking...
But I also remember that the reason for the introduction of the weber was to even out the field. It was a "fit and forget" whereas the Solex was apparently difficult to get 2 alike.. Quite amusing.
Potentially injection could be a way to even out the field.. personally i'll take some convincing
My concern with this level of development would be the effect on grid numbers  and the attraction to potential new members.
The grid needs all the help it can get and to be attractive as a club to new members and 2cv enthusiasts we need to keep the ethos of cheap close motorsport, and keep the cars fairly close to their road going siblings.
I'm not convinced by the Weber, so on that front I sympathise with Richard. it has replaced the problems we had with the spluttering solex with a different set of problems. But these problems are the same for all of us. And were the same for all of us with the solex.
I'm not convinced that with Injection all these issues would disappear, they would just be replaced by a different set of variables..
Its 2cv racing..
A bit of 2cv finding its way into the carb is part of the charm. And we have all suffered it.
I like many still hold a fondness for the Solex.
But we need to look at progress and try to tread carefully.
Remember, we have a tyre issue looming soon too!

[Paul]

Well said Alec,
i think we look at the solex with rosetinted spectacles,it wasn't by any means perfect and finding more than one good one was not easy towards the end.Mr Crook was immediately 4 seconds quicker at Mallory after fitting the weber.